Hey Dana

[Dana Acker]

Tai, by necessity, I've not been as active on the forum for a few days, so I've not been able to respond to your comments. First, to answer your questions and comments, first, let me say that I've not gone anywhere--I've been right here since the beginning. I will disagree with you that it was the metaphysical that drew me to the NTM's originally. What drew me originally was that I heard via a conversation with Virgil England at a Blade Show many full moons ago, after describing where I was at with my knifemaking, that there was a group out in Tuscon doing the same thing--shared some of the same philosophies and methodologies regarding the craft. That was when I got in touch with y'all and sent in my $10.00 to get TRIBAL NOW.

Now I have had fun with the metaphysical as much as the rest of you, but I feel that lately there's been much more emphasis on intangibles than tangibles. The intangible is fun, and I don't want to hinder it in any way, but I don't see a balance of "techniques" for lack of a better term going along with it. Seems like at one time there was a lot of exploration of trying to find new and unusual "tribal" methods and materials not commonly used by the knifemaking community for making knives. The empahsis was split between the two themes. Like I said, I'd like to see the discussion incorporate the explorative side of things once again, more than it has been. Again, that doesn't mean I want to see the metaphysical discussions go away. And while the metaphysical/intangible discussions are fun, they often tend to end up religious discussions, which, to me, don't seem to accomplish much other than having a myriad of religious opinions expressed with no consensus achieved, and after a while losing track of where the discussion originated in the first place. They even sort of die on the vine because people seem to lose interest in them because nothing is proven that most people find helpful. They are entertaining, maybe, and that's OK, but not much else. They seemed to have more meaning back yonder.

I think you are way off base in trying to draw a parallel between my being a moderator and selling more knives and any kind of shift in attitude. Quite frankly, I don't think I've changed as much as many of the original NTM's have. You yourself have been hot on the NTM's, then you've gone through periods where you've practically disavowed it, saying that the movement was over--remember, you were the first person to advocate changing the name of this forum, and removing the name Neo-Tribal Metalsmiths, then you've gone through periods where you were sort of neutral about it, now you're gung ho about it again. So, while you've been all over the place with it, I've not gone anywhere--I've stayed right here. If you miss me, as you say, then perhaps it's because you've wandered away from time to time.

I don't participate in as many of the metaphysical discussions as I once did, because I do my best to avoid religious discussions, and as I said, many times the metaphysical discussions end up being just that. I don't mind them taking place on the forum, and not once in my moderatorship have I tried to halt or discourage one from taking place. But I see little new taking place in them, and, quite frankly, they just haven't sparked that much interest in me lately. Give me something new, and I'll comment on it. Yes, I enjoyed the first discussions of the enchanted blade, but after awhile, I felt everything had been said that could be said, and anything I had to offer to subsequent discussions would have been redundant. I can get as cosmic as you, Bro., but if I'm going to get cosmic, I prefer to, as Capt. Kirk used to say, "Go where no man has gone before."

And, no I don't want to see the NTM's become a club with memberships, dues and rules. That's the most rediculous thing I've heard in a long time. I've never advocated that, and you know it, so stop making those kinds of insinuations. They're not true. But in the beginning, the group, as diverse as it was, seemed to have direction and purpose--that's what defined it--not leadership, or techniques or styles, but by it's unity and common sense of purpose. Because the movement ended (and not by my hand did it do so--if your memory serves you well, you'll remember that I was the one who played referee and fought to keep it from ending) there seems to be no unified momentum like there once was. The sense of common identity or purpose is what I miss. I am an individualist's individualist, and I encourage others to find their own niche--I always have, but the old gang, you have to admit, was fun. Maybe I just never took the time to mourn its passing.

Perhaps because I've been busy with the forum and trying to keep things together in the midst of all the changes, I've not had the time you have had to re-invent my thinking on the matter. I'm still here Brother Tai. It's the same old me, perhaps a bit less idealistic, and a bit more cynnical, but I haven't gone anywhere. Maybe you just haven't looked hard enough for me. Maybe you and I and St. Pete need to have a conference. But anyway, you wanna get cosmic, Bro.? Then throw down. I can be the hootchie cootchie man when it comes to cosmic.

Here's a little post I made over at the Crucible, that might interest you and the rest of you, on "Hobby vs. profession". I've seen it happen so many times before. I can see it coming bro. No offence, but I dissagree with what you are saying, nice try though.

http://pub14.ezboard.com/fthecrucibl...picID=52.topic

Neo-Tribal is not totally obscure, in fact, I think most of us have a common ground here. Part of what you are saying just comes from the fact that N-T is still so new, that it has not had time to define itself. No one person can define it for the rest, but in the end it will define itself given the time. I'm in for the long haul, just backed off the name for a while, to see what would happen, and I found out...

[MongoForge]

I'm in for the long haul, just backed off the name for a while, to see what would happen:

Thats the biggest bunch of crap i ever heard in my
life

I remember when you left, and was talking about
how it was dead and stuff..
Youre like an old dog Tai, you pet it one day and it
licks you, you do it the next day and
it bites you.
You change like the wind Tai..
Ive known Dana for a few years know,
and there hasnt been anything
that has changed with him.
Youre the one that is out for poplularity.
Your barking up the wrong tree, Tai, Misternatural?, flamingblade,
jake, JoeBob, whatever youre name is for the day.

...and those are some of my better qualities! hee hee

Well... I've been doing the "Neo-Tribal thing" longer than anyone else here, and my honest opnion is that, "professional neo-tribalism" is really more a way of life, than it is a job. So, if you don't like it, jam it!

[MongoForge]

I dont remember anyone
claiming to have been
doing it longer than you...

It's like this... to the "spiritual man", all aspects of life are spiritual, ESPECIALLY what he does for a living, to survive... even if it means being a neo-tribal metalsmith! To grow bored with the spiritual side, is to grow bored with the technical side. It's all the same!

If any of y'all really wanted more technical information, on being neo-tribal, than you are getting on the forums,... then why don't you pay the price to come out to Tucson and take some lessons with me? I can still teach you. :confused:

[Dana Acker]

It's not technical info, per se, that I'm looking for. There was a lot of enjoyment for me in seeing people finding new and unusual ways and things with which to enhance their knifemaking.

And another thing, Tai, you mentioned "knifemaking from the heart," and I agree with that sentiment totally. I'm sure there are those who approach knifemaking strictly from a money making point of view, but I can honestly say that I have never met someone like that so far. ALL of the knifemakers that I personally know, from the most successful to the newest newbie do it from their hearts. Most that I know, me included, do not make enough money at knifemaking to completely support themselves, and yet they do it with passion. That's got to be the heart, Bro. Don't you think? Being compensated for one's work and an increase in business do not equate with a loss of heart or passion. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

[Dana Acker]

Who said anything about getting bored with the spiritual side? I just grow tired of the same thematic discussions. Like I said, move onto a new topic, and I'll be glad to join in. Also the spiritual side of a person is a very personal and subjective thing. Not participating in a forum discussion hardly qualifies as spiritual boredom. On the other hand, spiritual growth, usually incorporates new ideas, or at least new takes on old ideas, as opposed to a continual beating of the proverbial dead horse.

[Sweany]

neo tribal is what it is.

Ya'll metaphysicans can pound iron in your mind all ya want to.

You can chant, throw incense on the forge and work wearing nothing but Bart Simpson underwear it changes nothing the steel don't care. ...............................

steel is steel, it ain't magic, it ain't alive and it don't have soul

[Dana Acker]

I see what you're saying Mike, and part of the problem with the metaphysical discussions, is that each of the terms you mentioned magic, soul, etc., all have different meanings to different people, thus making any discussion thereof potentially a never ending quagmire of different opinions which might be entertaining, but do not lead very far. At least to this point, it hasn't helped me to produce a better knife. I recall what one of one of my professors said of the metaphysical once, he said it was like good parfume--it's nice to smell, but you wouldn't want to put it in your mouth.

[prizzim]

This is an interesting thread, and one I've avoided until now. A similar one got me banned from Primal Fires. I'll walk softly here. 8o

In his commencement exercise speech at Villanova University in 1990, Tom Clancy told the graduating students that he was going to give them their last lesson in metaphysics (the philosophy of ultimate reality). Then he said, "Nothing is as real as a dream. The world may change about you but your dream will not. It will always be the link with the person that you are today, young and full of hope. If you hold on to it, you may grow old but you will never be old. And that ladies and gentlemen is the ultimate success."

I agree with just about everyone here, from different angles. Tai seems to be coming from a very spiritual side, and so that point of view is integral to his work. Cool. Dana, on the other hand, seems to take a more practical point of view in his knifemaking, but clearly has separate parts of his mind where real knives and metaphysical discusions belong. And Mongo did post "Thats exactly it, who cares what other people think!.." but I think his comment has an entirely different meaning that the one Tai's focusing on in the other thread. And Mongo points out Tai's jumping bean position on the whole NeoTribal issue, something I think the participants (note I didn't say 'members') of this forum can relate with, whether its true or not from Tai's position. But now we're getting really academic here.

I'm gonna step in now and mildly suggest that forum converstions on one person's motivations, beliefs, spiritual interest, or financial realities are NOT going to make ANY of us BETTER KNIFEMAKERS.
Interesting conversation? Sometimes.
Appropriate for the forum? Not my call.

I'll finish by saying what I said on my banning post... I like it here. I don't want to see it end, nor do I think anyone's right out of line. I just think that a little public respect and consideration for privacy might be in order. *If* it were me, and it clearly wasn't, the original question in this thread would have been sent via email, not blasted up here in demand of a public response. That's just my opinion. I don't pretend to say what others should do, or are comfortable with. I just see Dana in a position of defending himself, and I don't know that he's comfortable with it. That's all. Life is what it is. Hammer on. Let's all pound some steel tonight. See ya tomorrow.

[Dana Acker]

Tai, you say you're in it for the long haul, and that the movement is still too new to have defined itself, but what if when it does define itself, it isn't a definition you like. Will you still be in it for the long haul then? Rightly, wrongly, or indifferently, when the movement began to be defined by "primitive knives" you bolted. What if a majority of Neo-Tribals began naturally began taking the movement in a direction which differed from your vision of things? It could happen. It seems to me that no matter how new or old the movement becomes it will have to remain indefineable, which means that anything and everything can be defined as NT, which can have potentially the same effect as it becoming rigidly defined. Neo-Tribal is what it is. But what would you say it is, if someone asked you?

For me now, my current emphasis is on the "tribal" aspect, that is the brotherhood of knifemakers I have grown to know as a result of my association with the group. To me that's the only stable part of the whole thing. I've seen too much else change. The brotherhood, to me, is the constant. I'd like to think the "process" is important too, but that has become too subjective a thing to define, so it's totally what I (and all the rest of us individually) make of it.

[Dana Acker]

Chris, your input is sound, and very well put. Thank you. Thanks for setting me straight about Mongo's comment, like you, I didn't take it in the context that Tai did.

For the record, I don't want to see anyone's posts get banned unless they are obscene, abusive or inflammatory. I like to get off topic once and a while--but I don't like to see that become the be all end all.

And while I appreciate what you said about about my being challenged, and how that might have been better handled in an e-mail, well, I knew the job was dangerous when I took it. I didn't feel a need to defend myself. I chose to respond because I care about what Tai thinks, whether I agree with him or not. My thoughts and opinions are my own, and are not threatened by the opposing views of others. If I'm not threatened, then there's no need for defense. I may give answer and explanation, but that's out of courtesy and respect for the inquirer. Opinions are like noses, everyone has one, and probably most will not agree with mine. I try to be true to myself. If someone has a problem with that, then that's their problem. On the other hand, I do have a problem with insults and accusations based on either assumptions or faulty information, but again, when it comes right down to it, in reality, that still is the other guy's problem unless I choose to make it mine, which, quite frankly, I find that I have better things to do for the most part. Sticks and stones...you know. Last I heard, ultimate authority and judgment resides in heaven. Anything less, plus a dollar bill will purchase one a cup of coffee at one's local diner.