lining the forge

[Omega]

ok just got everything i need to line the forge....now the questions
the itc says to mix i part itc and 2 parts water,,,,what about the satinite? i got 5 lbs of satinite and 1/2 pint of itc should i use it all at once, i mean how thick should i paint each layer on


thanks bill

[Ray Rogers]

The idea behind the use of the Satanite is to stiffen up the wool and keep the little fibers from getting into the air. That can be accomplished with a very thin later of Satanite with a consistancy so thin that it can be easily applied with a paint brush. Or, you can use it so thick that you have to apply it with a trowel. Either way, your choice, but I think most people just paint it on. I don't think anyone uses it more than 1/8" thick at most. It gets damaged easily when you use the forge so you'll have to patch it often anyway.

After the Satanite dries, then paint on the ITC very thinly....

[Omega]

thanks ray should i fire the frorge between coats if so how long?

thanks bill

[Raymond Richard]

Originally Posted by Omega

thanks ray should i fire the frorge between coats if so how long?

thanks bill

Now from the other Ray. You want the first coat to dry before you apply the second. I'll normally fire up the forge and let it run for about 1 minute and shut it off. It will continue to steam for awhile. Check it to see if it has dried out all the way. You may want to fire it up again. The only time I used the itc I let it air dry without forcing it.

[Andrew Garrett]

Fibers in the air...

Is this a bad thing? Some forges comes with Insulwool liners that do not have a Satanite coating. I have one. I also just relined an old forge which has firebrick walls that were cracked and damaged. I fust cut some Insulwool to fit and stuck it up in there for added thermal retention. Am I endangering myself?

What is itc (other than the Wichita airport code--or is that ict)? Should I have some?

[Darren Ellis]

Hi Bill, What those guys said is right on the money. Also, you can check out our FAQ page for the instructions we provide:

http://faq.elliscustomknifeworks.com/

Have fun with that forge!



-Darren

[Andrew Garrett]

Thanks Darren. All my questions are now answered. Time to mix up more satanite.

Sure makes me wonder about my other forge though...

[B.Finnigan]

Don't forget to spray the insulwool with a light misting of water so the refractory adheres better.

[Raymond Richard]

Brent, I have never bothered with the water spray. Good, thin, and wet has always worked well for me. The last little forge I made I couldn't remember where I had left my paint brush so I grabbed a light scrub brush with the plastic bristles and gave it it a go. It worked better than any brush I have tried so far and it rinsed out real easy. I just got to remember where I put it.

[Omega]

is there anything wrong with letting the satinite air dry completly and not use the forge to do so

bill

[Ray Rogers]

Nothing at all wrong with that, Bill, if you have the patience....

[Crex]

You can hit somewhere in the middle with the drying time by using a shop light directed into the forge at close range. As mentioned above the satanite needs to be dried fully between coats. Trapped moisture and high heats can cause serious injury.

I personally like the thicker 1/8" coating of satanite as it makes the walls a good bit tougher. It only takes a very thin coating of ITC to get the extra effect. Actually more of a "wash" than a coating. I just take a machinest's chip brush and cut it off right behind the ferrel reattach at a right angle and use it to paint on the watery ITV mix. Works like a charm.

Seal the wool if you value your lungs or at least as Jerry Lewis used to say "Do it for the kids!"

[Raymond Johnson]

A pottery teacher I had some years ago told me that all ceramic fiber insulations are a carcinogin ( that's cancer causing for lamen ) after 1500 F. There are type that are now being made that are safer, but they cost more and backyard guys don't want to here that. For those that are interested, look up axner pottery supply in fl. They carry some and have some info it.
Please be safe
Raymond Johnson

[Martin Brandt]

I believe all refractory materials have silica in them. Silica in fine enough particles to be airbourne can be breathed into your lungs where it lodges in the small sacs and being non soluble stays there causing micro scaring. We all have a small amount in our lungs as silica is in every soil on earth, and is often airbourne. The critical factor is quantity. The scaring occurs over a lifetime, and the more silica the more scaring. The scaring gradually limits the air sacs ability to exchange oxygen with the blood. The old guys I met working witth my Dad, when I was young, had breathed in silica at ceramics plants, or rock crushing plants for years. Some had to wheel around an oxygen bottle due to the scaring and limited oxygen exchange from the years of dust. That is advanced silicosis. There is probably some setting up for cancer when the amount of silica, and scaring is high. This is where respirators, dust masks, cross ventilation etc. come in. Climb into an empty swim pool and start sand blasting and no amount of cross ventilation will be enough to keep silica out of your lungs. Work on your belt grinder in your closed shop, and along with metal dusts, (some of them toxic heavy metals) you will be inhaling silica dusts. Wear a respirator! It is about quantity, and avoidance. Line your fiber refractory forge lining with some mortar lining to reduce the amount of airborne ceramic (silica) fiber that gets air bourne, and it makes that liner last a whole lot longer. With good ventilation while forging your intake of silica dust will be greatly limited. Now my question for the group is: How many folks use castable refractory cement for the bottom of their forge? I use it in mine and it seems to be almost completely flux proof. Plus it makes the bottom of my forge much tougher. I have to re apply mortar to the kaowool liner occasionaly, but I haven't had to re-do the bottom for several years so far. But then I'm a part timer, and don't do near as much forging as Ray Richard does. I probably forge more than some folks, as I also do some decorative stuff besides knives, but mostly blades. Regarding the respirator issue, if you don't wear one or rarely do, if you are stuffed up in the evening after forging or grinding, if you blow black boogers after shop work, then you ARE damaging your lungs. Grinding and sawing handle materials without a good respirator will also put you at risk for lung damage, and or allergic reactions, heart damage, reactive pneumonia,and other severe breathing disorders. The paper dust masks are not good enough, and besides they fog up your glasses. We are all wearing some kind of glasses at least aren't we? There are many models of respirators on the market, they are not expensive, and they come in all sizes so fit is no longer a problem. Most exaust out the bottom so they don't fog up your glasses. I am very sensitive to dusts of many kinds so I have to wear a respirator to prune shrubs, mow lawns, and for almost any work in the shop. I think I own 4 of um. Some of my problem stems from grinding many knives when I was just a lad (Jr. High) with a totally worthless respirator in the 70's, and breathing in hugh quantitys of fiberglass after high school. The point is we didn't know better then, but we do now. Sorry for the long post, my wife tells me I'm long winded, who'd have thunk it? Stay healthy by taking good care of your self, if not for you, then for your kids, and or grandkids, I got 7 of um (grandkids that is).

[Ray Rogers]

Martin,

I have several inches of castable over some fire bricks in the bottom of my forge, and some Bubble Alumina on top of that - as flux proof as I could make it. From all indications it should be good for many years of service although I have replaced the wool upper part of the forge 3 times already.

While pondering Martin's excellent advice on respirators it occurred to me that there is probably another hazard that we should beware of if we do forge welding. If you weld you are probably using some form of borax as a flux. I use a firebrick to partially close off the front opening in my forge. After a few hours of working with some billets I noticed that the inside of the brick that stops the blast of gasses coming out of the forge was coated with a thick brown glaze. When the glaze cools it becomes very hard and 'welds' the brick to the front of the forge. This glaze seems to be a derivative of the flux that is carried out of the forge on the hot gasses. I don't really know what is in borax but I think we can safely assume that we don't want it in our lungs so try not to breathe the gasses the blast out the front of your forge! I don't know if you can wear a plastic respirator and work with a forge or not, but it's worth thinking about ...