Standards of excellence

I think we "all" have the potential to be innovators.

[Davis]

Originally posted by Misternatural?
... The problem is that most innovation is only acceptable or profitable within the guidelines of established standards or genres.

So, innovators strive to create practitioners, but once there is a glut of them, it becomes more a matter of conformity to an established standard of excellence.

Matthew Arnold wrote an essay in 1857, "The Function of Criticism," which means exactly the same thing.

Without practitioners/critics doing the same-old / same-old, there would be no need for artists/innovators!

There is no substitute for quality.
And you cannot mass-produce imagination.

Trish

[Chuck Burrows]

I am using fit in the sense of it works/feels/balances for me personally. Semantics is a wonderful thing isn't it!

Fine fit or fine finish are not qualitative terms per se or at least not to me. There are "certain standards" perhaps set more by society than by design and those standards often change and or are subjective depending on ones viewpoint. Trish was true in the sense that "crap" is crap, but that really is more a matter of shoddy or inappropriate materials and downright poor workmanship.
"Good workmanship" just doesn't have to fit a certain mold. (generally good workmanship just means the #### thing does what it's supposed to do and won't fall apart the first time you use it)
Of course if we redefine the terms than aren't we in a sense juast creating a new albeit different mold?

Catch-22 again

[Chuck Burrows]

I think we "all" have the potential to be innovators.

Potential yes - desire/drive/need no. That does not make one person better or lesser, just different. It's ones' own choice that matters.

My old Zen master once told me to quit striving, only then would things work for me. Some folks call that being in the zone or going with the flow. Still sometimes one must swim upstream.

[MaxTheKnife]

Standards of excellence huh? Hmmmm......

Here's the standards I hold myself to. First, I consider myself an innovator. I seem to move from one new thing to the next. Always seeking perfection and never finding it. But, to me, that has nothing to do with my standards of excellence. To me, standards of excellence have more to do with a perception of the finished product. And the steps along the road to the completion of the project.

See, I know what has to take place during the making of a knife. It's imbedded in my mind and causes me to constantly review whatever steps I know are coming. Sort of like the game of chess. Good players can think ahead several moves and be on top of the game all the time. And the really good ones can compensate for a move by their opponent they hadn't considered. It's called thinking on your feet. It's one of my few strong points and is a big part of my standards of excellence. It enables me to forge and finish a knife for a known need or planned use. Without that information, I'm hobbled and just have to do my best if you see what I mean.

Forging and heat treating the blade is the most important part as far as I'm concerned. Everything else is gravy. Forging in that distal taper and getting the right balance at the choil/ricasso are the biggest challenge. Then matching the right components to the blade in a way that compliment the whole 'package' is very important.

This next part takes alot of heat from a majority of knifemakers but here we go again. I put alot of heart and soul into my knives. I firmly believe it engenders a certain 'warmth' in the finished product that can't be had any other way. It's along the same lines as quenching to true North and that type of thing. Our personal beliefs and feelings play a large part in the overall 'package' concept of the finished product. I've seen it too many times to doubt it now. As I'm working on a knife, I'll just 'know' when it's going south on me and can change gears and bring it back in line in most cases. And on the other hand, I'll just have this 'feeling' when everything is right. It's those knives that just seem to magically come to completion without a hitch. I'm sure you boys know what I'm talking about.

The bottom line for me is how do I feel about this knife I've just finished? Would I buy it and treasure it? Do I wish I could keep it and make another one to fill the order with? That's the acid test for me. Total eye appeal, how it feels in my hand and my perceived dollar or trade value because of these two things. That's the definition of my standards of excellence. Also, knowing what has gone into the making of the knife. That's a big deal as well. I have faith in my knives. Each and every one of them. And that makes a big difference in how others percieve them as well.

My committment is to quality, utility and value. I don't make 'purty' knives as a general rule and my customers know that. My knifemaking philosophy has attracted the type of people that want the kind of knives I make. And I think that's an important point to make here too. No one knifemaker is going to be able to satisfy every customer that wants a knife. What I forge and finish up and declare as my 'best' work may be the object of scorn and ridicule from the knife buyer looking for something more showy and less functional. I know that from experience and it helps me learn about the diversity of the human animal. And on the other side of the scale, what I consider to be a marginal knife from my shop may be the most beautiful piece a certain buyer has ever seen or held. Had that happen a few times too. Standards of excellence can't be defined by any one person or even a group of persons. It's an individual perception, both from the buyer's viewpoint as well as the maker's. How'd I do Tai? He he.

I think fit and finish can be interpreted differently. I'll use myself as an example.


When I came out with the "edged fetishes" they were percieved by many as "anti" fit and finish. Some folks along with myself saw that they were just another type of fit and finish. This is just one example, but I've done many different types of fit and finish. The possibilities are endless.

This fetish has texture. It is also composed of three main pieces that are notched, splinted and wraped together.

I think the important thing is that makers have some type of standards. I see the main difference between average knifemakers and great knifemakers mainly in there standards and how high they set them. People with high standards do better work.

[cactusforge]

You guys are getting too deep for me. To simplify the subject I will put it this way. I and I alone set my standards and no one els counts. workmanship, fit, finish and feel of the finished knife and any thing that I control must be top shelf. Just my thoughts on the subject.
Gib

[paul harm]

amen gib ! i make what i feel like [ seeing how i don't depend on knives for a living ] to me fit is all important- after the forging and heat treat. finish is more a personal thing [ hammer marks, satin, mirror]. if the guard, handle, blade doesn't fit[ no gap], then it gets scraped or redone. a good knife has a good look, same as a good sheath. don't think anyone is setting standards other than good quality and blade performance. the stuff tia does is "art" more than inovation. wish i had the artistic ability to do something like that. chuck, bet there are no gaps in the welts on your sheaths. oh, i applied for kith- but don't know there to go to see the list, or if i got on- any help ? paul

[Keith Montgomery]

Even if at times this thread gets a little more philosophical than I am used to seeing on a forum dedicated to knives, I am really enjoying what I am reading here.

Tai, in your statement that people with high standards do better work, you are stating the obvious as far as I am concerned. How could it be any other way?

One thing I have learned from this thread is that I would have no second thoughts about owning the creations of any of those makers (of knives or sheaths) that have taken part here. You have all shown that you care very deeply about the quality of your work.

Now an off topic question for Gib. On page 122 of the Knives 2003 I noticed a beautiful bowie made by a maker by the name of Gil Guignard. A relative of yours? Don't you hate it when they get your name wrong like that?

[Phillip Jones]

Ever notice just how many people are judging knives, on the internet and at shows, simply by how it looks rather than the performance of the piece? Too often, fit & finish are the top criteria for quality.
Not long ago we got into an arguement here at the Outpost about quality. It seems most people who aren't into "Neo-Tribal" think that a hammer finish constitutes poor quality.

Tai,
Awesome "Edged Fetish"!
Let me guess, is that sterling silver attached to mokume(fine silver/shakudo)? Or is it damascus?

[Chuck Burrows]

There is a show on PBS called POV - Point of View and that's the bootom line in a sense.

From "those" people's POV Tai's fetish edge may not have fit or finish but it does to me - just a different set of references dependent on the type of work/style one is working in.

I do a lot of American Frontier style sheaths which use almost anti-thetical methods of construction to those I use when I make one of my "fine" finished full carved sheaths. I treasure both styles and by my definition they are both "finely fitted" and "finished".

I think the important thing is that makers have some type of standards.

I totally agree. The thing though is that standards should at least in part be set based on skill level and experience.
When I teach leather craft I always stress that my student should not compare their skill level to mine. Maybe I'm not saying this well but, it has taken me 40+ years to attain my skill level, so I shouldn't judge others based on those standards. But at the same time I advise my students to set goals that at the time may seem out of reach, but it is the only way in my experience that one's work improves. I also show them my scrap box whicj is full of those things that just didn't come up to par. Paul I never have gaps in afinished piece only because I never send ine out the door in that condition - if there are gaps it gets redone - period.
Still I think certain standards of quality and workmanship are universal no matter what the skill level, but they aren't really based on eye appeal or some such which are really more of a POV.

Philip, the main body of the fetish is A6 steel, the middle part is nickel silver the hook part is copper plated wrought iron with a "fordite" inlay.

I think that the reason that knives are judged by fit and finish at shows is because testing them for performance would not be practicle at a show. If a maker has the skill to do fit and finish it is a sign of overall skill level, most of the time.

How do y'all feel about standardized blade testing and smith ranking through organizations??? What effect does it have on trends, marketing, innovation and public acceptance?

[Chuck Burrows]

I said earlier that I've always been a misanthropic lob and joining or being judged by "groups" has always been a turn off generally.

My stuff is usually intended as "using" stuff although it may also be "purty' stuff. I have used my own stuff personally in a lot of different environments and on a day to day basis so I know what works and what doesn't . That has always been my litmus test. It's how I work out design flaws and such.

But "people" in general seem to have a "need' for an organization (tribe?) to belong to that sets some sort of standards. But that outlooks seems to be in the majority and therefore it does affect all those things to a great degree. But I realized many moons ago it was the few, not the many that would appreciate my work so I quit trying to be accepted. Fortunately there are those who are willing to pay for my work and actually like it!

Being out of the mainstream makes it harder to make a living most of the time, but I accepted that fact long ago and realize that I might as well go out and get a 9-5 if I don't follow my muse. In fact as of this year I am no longer going to make exact replicas of original works. I no longer find the work enjoyable, its' actually become stultifying, so I just ain't gonna do it!

Does this make me better or worse? Nope just different and ain't that what makes the world go round?

Tai I'm still shaking my head why any one would consider that piece "anti" anything!

Chuck, It had a lot to do with the timing. I came out with those fetishes in the early 90s, before the NTMs movement. They don't look as outrages to us now. I came in out of the blue with them. Before that I was innovating within set standards, trends and guidelines. The reaction was very mixed. I came out with them at the Anahiem show, and won a special judges award. They hadn't planned the award, but made it up just for the fetishes. They promised me a plaque, which I never did recieve. I did get to go up and take a bow at the award cerimony though, and got mentioned in a magazine. Out of 17 pieces I had at the show 15 sold strictly as impulse buys. It really ticked some makers and collectors off. A couple fights nearly broke out over them at that show. Anyway they may have helped change standards a bit.

[Phillip Jones]

I am not too fond of the idea of having a stamp to show that you are good at what you do. Your work should speak for itself and should not have to be labeled in an attempt to identify it as good.
The term "master" denotes that that person has reached a level where they have nothing else to learn and their work has reached absolute perfection. I don't know anyone on earth that can stake that claim. There is only one master and we are not him.

Tai,
Sounds to me like those makers and collectors who got ticked were actually scared. Scared of a different way of thinking that challenged their own linear viewpoint.