Delrin Handles, Randall knife

[Jacknola]

Well, we can do it. Simply start a new line and then copy posts and enter them in new line, then delete from old line. I don't want to lose the Delrin information as it should be a source for future. But then the "odd-snap" is also a unique subject. I'll kick it off this evening.

Here is another "odd snap" from the time period ... but it may not be part of the set. It is a 1-8 with horizontal stamp.

[Jacknola]

In the end, I would like this line to be a go-to reference for future looks into the history of Delrin handles on Randall knives. So... I'm going to post any pictures of Randalls-with-Delrin that I come across with brief comments, best I can do. Please feel free to add comments or correct my assumptions. We all gain from other's shared wisdom or opinions.

The pictures of this first knife are ones I borrowed from Miles Welze's site. They are of a knife he sold back in 2011.

http://www.mileswelze.com/Randall_Vintage_2-5BKD.html

He did not attempt to date it in his description but he was confident about his identification of the spacer arrangement, all thin, all red and white. Wickersham mentions that upon the cessation of the use of 7-spacers for non-leather, all remaining spacers where piled into a common bins and used thereafter. Most of these were thin.

Based on this thin gruel and perhaps the look of the shape of the coolie cap nut, I suspect a date for the knife of about 1973 ... but that could be totally wrong. There are a number of Delrin handled knives that have some combo of 5 spacers and that may be earlier than '72-'73.









This next knife is one I found somewhere ... perhaps E-bay. It is pretty unique given the separate S, post-1966 type 3 blade stamp, 7-spacers, and handle shape. I'm not sure it is Delrin... it may have some type of grain... but it doesn't look Ivory either. Whatever, lets include it here.



This last knife is one of Guido Bitossi's collection that he posted elsewhere. I don't think he'll mind my using it here. It does seem that Bowies and Toothpicks used a fair amount of Delrin. Perhaps the shop was instrumental in steering customers to handles for these presentation type blades instead of ivory.

[dax0007]

Great info! However i doubt the dagger u posted with seprated S is delrin.. Never seen one with that grainy type handle.. The delrin i have seen is fairly easy to spot...

[jeepster]

I agree with Dax on that. It isn't Delrin. Beautiful knife though.
Ronnie

[Jacknola]

I do wish I had saved the details of this knife. Cannot even remember where I found it. But here are two more pictures. The knife looks late 1960s... therefore the handle should either be ivory or Delrin. The handle just doesn't look like ivory, but it does seem to have a grain.. which could be an effect of carving I suppose. Or it is an oddball ... with an experimental handle material, or old blade handled in white micarta or something at a later date. Interesting knife for sure... Have not seen other handles in this configuration.

[dax0007]

Hey Jack.. I dont have the knowledge to date Randalls...So i cant date that seperated S with post 1966 style sheath.. However I do know IVORY from the 60s does not look identical to the IVORY i have seen in the 80s.. I have a 1980s ivory handle Thorpe with Conan scrimshaw(Frazetta inspired) Its stunning! The ivory on that handle is just WOW-- Creamy, grainy, flows.. stunning.. The IVORY on that knife looks very similar to that seperated S dagger with 70's style sheath..

My handle really looks allot like that dagger with the grainy handle.. I have seen OLDER IVORY handles from the 50-60s and they dont have the refine creamly look as the 80s i have seen.. Maybe i am crazy just my observation!

I can post pics if u like of my conan Thorpe, but since its not Delrin i figure not a good idea.. but its matches that dagger handle..

[Jacknola]

This is a test for those interested. Why am I posting these two knives in this line? What questions do these knives raise? What questions do they answer? How are those answers related to a subject covered in this line?





OK here is the hint... this knife

[dax0007]

Hey Jack. Well i failed the test...
Both look to be 1960s.. Handle material?? Delrin white and some sort of black micarta or possible black delrin??

Not sure what the point is.. However I have never seen a randall i dont like

HERE IS A REAL TREAT!! Wish i had 3000$ cause i am sure thats what the bid will end at. If it was a BRASSBACK THORPE.. I would go over board and spend the money... I got a think with the brassback

http://www.ebay.com/itm/181580061230...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[Jacknola]

No response to above questions... except Don... thanks for checking in Don and that "King Faisel II set" is a beauty... but differs from the original primarily in the escutcheon plate size and shape. Perhaps someday someone will Goggle and use this line for further research...

I have not found this mentioned in the Randall literature, but it seems that most or all of the escutcheon plates installed prior to about '60-'61 were ad hoc, oblong, no true uniform shape. Then about 1960-61, the shop seems to have adopted a uniform oval-football (rugby type) shape for the plates ... first silver and then according to Wickersham, about 1965 brass became available (but was not yet listed in the catalog in 1966).

This may be just an impression not actual fact, but ... my Delrin handled 3-7 has an oval silver escutcheon plate which makes it interesting to see if those type escutcheon plates were being installed in 1960 when it has been projected that the knife was made. So ... here is a chronology of escutcheon plates through the critical years...as best I could locate pictures bracketing that period. (It is surprising how few escutcheon plates are out there).

Early '50s



Gary Clinton James Jones 1955



1959, second 13-6 ever made. (note: inscription on plate has 1958 date) This dating was fully addressed and documented by Ron Mathews in an excellent treatise on another board.



Zimmerman, Stockman sheath, 1960-1961

2-5 with Heiser-Randall sheath (why this is likely a Heiser-Randall and not a Johnson would require considerable space to prove. So for now, allow me to just declare it), knife dated by several knowledgeable vintage Randall collectors on another board to '59-'60 (but with typically confusing and contradictory opinions because of the Randall stamp on the Heiser sheath)



NOTE: the time span between the above knife and the one pictured below probably covers the change from ad hoc oblong escutcheon plates to standardized oval-rugby football shape

Ron Mathew's knife and description: "very early '60s because of choll cut," ... oval escutcheon plate, Heiser-Randall 'west' stamp on sheath



12-9 Bowie, 1963



Bowie from Wickersham book, early mid-60s



Gary Clinton early mid 60s



1-8 teeth



It looks as if the critical change in the shape of the escutcheon plate occurred just about mid-late 1960, perhaps overlapping into 1961. Therefore, use of the oval plate on the Delrin 3-7 was possibly consistent with a production date in 1960. More data would help, especially pictures of early knives with escutcheon plates. Given that, perhaps the whole thesis would fall apart, which is not a bad thing if it is data driven.

I wonder what else could we look at? How about the fonts on the escutcheon plates? It sometimes surprises me how little actual methodical cataloging of the characteristics of early Randalls has been done, or at least published.

[dax0007]

WOW JACK stunning info.. making me lust to start collecting escutcheon.. if i win the Florida 46million lottery tonight..boy would i make every Randall collector happy cause i would buy up everything... Let me see lump sum of 46mil would be about 28mil.. 500k on old randalls, 500k on some ruanas, 500k to blow.. Wife would get 1/2 of that so she would get 13mil..
Still leaves me with enough to donate 5million to some good children/animal charties.. live off the rest.. Boy i spent that money and have not won it yet! I would even give knifenetwork a makeover too.

well i will let u know tomorrow if i win...,LOL....

Those pictures are stunning especially the Jame Jones escutcheon plated randall.. just WOW!..

THis could be a great topic. i dont think iever seen any one go into the history of the escutcheon plates...

[Moosehead]

This is fantastic stuff you're posting here, Jack!

Thanks for all of your efforts in helping to shed light on the complicated world of older Randalls.

Cheers!

David

[Jacknola]

Once again we are off the Delrin subject... However, cruising the net looking for escutcheon plates, I found this interesting and beautiful knife. Story can be read at this link, worth the read:

http://svalbardrepublic.org/ebay/randall-boxed0910.htm

Because of the (probably ?) late 1962-63 (or so) date of the knife, it doesn't really sharpen the question of the timing of the change in escutcheon plate shape. But what an interesting knife. It has a fairly rare Johnson brown button sheath*, no model numbers on back, which probably dates the knife pretty precisely to late '62, early '63. This of course would be one of the first sheaths made by Johnson.

Note the oval escutcheon plate and note that the font of the initials are not pixelated. The plate looks like might be brass, but brass plates supposedly were not available until 1965-66 or so...(but this may not be brass, possibly just some oxidation on silver or some protective lubricant - see last pictures). Note also the odd stamp on the ricosso, "WDR 4". All in all, well worth posting in this line.













* this sheath has most of the characteristics of an early Johnson brown button... but the stitching seems poor.

Also interesting, a magazine article about Randalls was inside the box. The article was written by George X. Sand. He is also the author who started the whole "Bermuda Triangle" myth in an article he wrote in the 1950s. After some research, the article appeared in "Ford Truck Times," Summer, 1969. Here is a link to that article:

http://www.fordification.com/library...g2_itemId=7393

[Ironwood Nut]

Jack

WDR are the initials of "BO" Randall, I don't know about the 4

Peter

[Jacknola]

Thank you Peter. I am embarrassed I didn't realize those were Mr. Randall's initials. This "WDR 4" stamp makes for another mystery and interesting sidebar. And I think that presentatation-type 7-5 (?) with the rosewood handle and box is terrific. I wonder where it is?

I'm a little surprised that no one has asked why I think that model "B" sheath with that 2-4 boot knife is made by Heiser, not Johnson. But ... that would reopen the Heiser vs Johnson sheath line. Basically, the Cliff notes version is that I believe the Heiser/Johnson stamp orientation is reversed on model "B" sheaths.

Perhaps I'll update my thoughts on model "B" sheaths there sometime in the future.

[Jacknola]

The escutcheon plate posts in this line are intended to provide rationale for the dating of the 3-7 Delrin handled knife. Soon, I'll break out the escutcheon posts into a separate line. But before that here is one more escutcheon data point.

Into every theory about vintage Randalls a little anomaly must fall. Here is a knife that would be regarded as very early '60s at first glance. It appears in Hunts Randall Military Models under the "Carried Knives" section, p. 170. Unfortunately, the owner of this field knife was KIA on August 8, 1972. The book notes that the knife is now the property of collector, Evan Nappen.



Here is what Hunt writes about this knife:

"As collectors we recognize the knife as a Model 1 with eight-inch blade and an ebony handle with nickel silver nameplate where his initials are prominently scrolled...

"...Note the seven-spacer arrangement at the brass guard and the rear spacer stack. The blade grind appears to be very early 1960s..."

We do not know who this soldier was. He could have been a long-time vet who acquired his knife a decade before. Certainly the knife was custom made for him with his name on the blade and initials on the plate. The sheath is definitely post-1963 while the blade stamp is a type-1 pre-1966.

I would speculate that this knife was made late 50s-early '60s. This was a time of slow sales for Randall fighters. I suspect this knife was dusted off, engraved and provided to the soldier when fighter sales suddenly picked up in 1964. At least that is a plausible story and tracks the original supposition if "The Magic Randall." And it acknowledges the very early '60s characteristics of the knife.

As an aside, notice the similarity of this APFK and the previously posted 2-5 boot knife, posted again here.