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Ed Caffrey's Workshop Talk to Ed Caffrey ... The Montana Bladesmith! Tips, tricks and more from an ABS Mastersmith.

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  #1  
Old 09-09-2008, 02:39 AM
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DiamondG Knives DiamondG Knives is offline
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Question on edge geometry

Hello Folks:

Ive been asked to make an Ulu type knife to be used in skinning and fleshing out beaver hides. My questions are these:

I plan on using 52100, this blade wont be required to flex, should I go for a higher RC so it will hold an edge longer, and if so, will it be that much harder to sharpen? I also have 5160, would this be a better option?

On edge geometry, Im thinking that it will be used more to scrape that to cut (thus the shape) What edge geometry will give me the best function? Would a blunter apple seed type edge help in not cutting the hide while scraping, or will this be accomplished by the arch of the blade design? I want it to be a sharp as possible, and hold it as frequent sharpening seems to be the gripe.(isnt it always!)

This Man is a professional trapper and says he averages 400 to 600 beaver a year.

Any imput you guys might have on this would be greatly appreaciated!

God Bless
Mike


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Old 09-09-2008, 03:35 AM
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AUBE AUBE is offline
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I would go with 52100 over 5160. I like 5160 for longer/tougher blades but 52100 seems to hold an edge better for me. As long as he isn't chopping through bones or some such I would go with the higher rc which will help it hold an edge longer. Yeah that will make it harder to sharpen but a nice diamond hone and a strop work pretty well even on higher rc's. As for the geometry I've never used an ulu for scraping so I'm not sure which would be better. It sounds like he has a lot of experience with this type of knife use so I would probably go with a more acute edge, that way it's easier for him to sharpen. Not a knife design I have much experience with.
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Old 09-09-2008, 03:50 AM
Bob Hartman Bob Hartman is offline
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Mike,
This is Coyote talk. I've never skinned a Beaver. To skin I like a blade the length of my fore finger. I run my finger along the entire spin of the knife, so it's like skinning with my finger. Total blade control.
The Ulu is actually a perfect shape for skinning. Fleshing (scrapping) is done with a flat blade while on the stretcher. I use an old butter knife for fleshing so I don't scrape through the hide.
I like a rather thin blade that will hold a decent edge, but one not so hard that you can't easily touch it up in the field on a steel, or worse a couple of licks on a stone.
Bob
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Old 09-09-2008, 08:26 AM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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Hi Mike!

As a teenager, I made my living as a trapper on the Ohio River. I've pelted out a truckload of beavers. No matter what you build, if the guy is going to work on beavers, its going to get sharpened A LOT. The layer of fat just under a beaver's hide is usually 1/4"-1" thick, depending on the part of the country. It is a very dense fatty tissue, that I can best describe as being full of sand/grit. More times than not it can actually stop a .22 round. Its a lot like cutting through soft rubber that is laced with sand.
Pelting out beaver is what got me started in knifemaking. Just couldn't find a commercial knife that would hold up.....because of all the sharpening, most were "toothpicks" within a couple of months.

Your going to give up flexibility, and IF this person if only going to using the piece to pelt out critters, I would go with a flat ground blade, leaving the edge about .015-.020 flat, and then convex that edge. Hardness wise, I would try take it to NO MORE than Rc 60. Anything above that with 52100, and it will be too fragile. With this application its going to be more important that the blade have good geometry, because I can promise you that its going to get sharpened past the edge bevels withing the first season, especially if the guy goes through as many beaver as you mentioned.

OK, to answer your questions directly....
1. I think 52100, nor more than a 60 Rc or your going to get too brittle, Its going to be more difficult to sharpen, but if this person skins as much as it seems, he should have no troubles with it.

2. On the grind, don't worry about the scraping chore. What he's talking about is taking the big chunks of flesh off the hides. There is a separate tool (a scraper) that is used for the actual "fleshing" chores. You won't be able to create a knife that is both a cutter and a flesher..... the scraper thats used on hides is like a draw knife, with an edge that has a heavy radius on it to "roll off" the flesh without cutting the actual hide ......you'll never get those two tools into one item. Concentrate on making the item a knife.

Be prepared! There is nothing that you or I can make that will hold up under that many beaver pelts...... I've tried several times, and the trappers that I built the knives for always stated that the knife was great, but dulled too fast. I've come to the point where I try to tell someone who requests a "beaver knife" that they would be better served buying 2-3 of the Russel Beaver Skinners, and keep them handy as they work. You've got your work cut out for you on this one......I've not run into a skinning job that is tougher on a blade than pelting out beavers.


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Old 09-09-2008, 12:40 PM
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Hello Mike,

Just to reinforce what ED told you. I too have skinned a LOT of beaver, along with muskrats, fox, coon and all the other commonly trapped critters. I love beaver pelts, but I hated skinning them. Tough dang rodents.

I don't think anyone else has mentioned this, so I'll point it out. A trapper designs most important feature is that it is nimble. It can be a chore to get a pelt off with the eye lids and lips in tact. Especially if you have a lot to do. And if you don't do it, it devalues the pelts.

The truth is that about the first 1/4 to 1/3 of most blades is all that ever gets used. So a blade with a long radius, sharp point, thin flat ground cross section, narrow blade and excellent edge retention is what I would look for if I were just going to have one blade for the job.

But like Ed said, you can't really find a knife that is excellent at fine work and capping. Just good at both. That's why I always used two different knives for pelting and then a draw knife I'd heated up, reversed the handles on and ground for fleshing.

Good luck Mike. You've taken on a heck of a job trying to build the perfect skinner. The perfect trapper has to feel like it turns your finger into a big blade, be nimble as a surgeon's scalpel and be tough as Jim's Bowie. That's a job guys have been trying to get done for a thousand years! ;~)

chiger,
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Old 09-09-2008, 04:44 PM
Bob Hartman Bob Hartman is offline
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LOL. You guys make skinning a Beaver sound like skinning a Hog. Take every sharp knife you own, and a sharpening stone.
Bob
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Old 09-09-2008, 07:52 PM
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Thanks for the imput guys I knew Id come to the right place!

After speaking with this Gentelman who is quite the charecter I might ad, I belive his hope is to have a blade, with the large radius, that will give him the best of both worlds, this will not be his fine work tool, Im making one of my hunters scalpel for that chore. He is wanting to be able to "rough clean" the pelt but at the same time clean the hide as good as possible. Dont know if this is the "craze of the week" with trappers or not,, but he told me he saw a "Trappers Ulu" demoed at a trappers convention and he wanted one out of that "Good Steel". He has a 52100 hunter of mine that he really likes

I appreciate all the help, hope I can make somthing this guy will be proud of!

God Bless
Mike


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