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  #1  
Old 09-29-2015, 04:02 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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Burner Angle / Position

Hey guys, So what i decided to do is order a venturi burner and since i do also want a blown burner i am going to take my time with that and build it myself (or try anyway). That way at least ill get a working burner better than what i have somewhat soon as i was having a hard time finding a couple pieces for it and the little bits localy. However my forge does not have the best burner placement it basicly comes in on the side and staight in no angle. i can angle it slightly with the wayi tighten the set screws that hold it in place but not enough to make much of a difference. So i figured new burner new placement. I dont think i will have a problem cutting out another hole in the shell and though the wool. What i want to know is what is the best way to place it? where and what angle. I have been told that placement doesnt matter all that much as long as it goes in at a tangent to the chamber. I actully took a lil while and just searched and looked through pics to see what angles are and i found out that people place these things where ever they can. I drew a lil picture (sorry i aint a artist). So FIGURE 1 is basicly what i have right now. both figure 2 and 3 are the 2 positions that make the most sense (i think) from all the pics i searched through. FIGURE 2 has the burner going it completely horizontal but right at the very top. FIGURE 3 has the burner go in at a very steep angle at the left side of the top of the chamber. In the picture the red lines are the burner. black is the shell. gray the wool and coatings. brown is the fire brick I also just put in buble alumina on the bottom undernieth and around the fire brick. Wich angle do you think is best i am leaning towards what is pictured in FIGURE 2 where the burner is horizontal on the very top but i wanna hear either how every one else has it set up and what you like or dislike about it and especilly if your set up or idea is different than either of the ones described.

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Old 09-29-2015, 06:25 PM
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Fig 2


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  #3  
Old 09-29-2015, 06:28 PM
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yup figure 2


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Old 09-29-2015, 07:31 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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Nice thats what i was leaning towards (made the most sense in my head but my head dont always make sense )thats why i asked. Have either of you guys ever been in this position? i am debating if it would be easier to just cut a brand new hole or rotate the whole forge body so the original hole is now towards the top and grind it down so the burner will sit right as in fig. 2. I think i am just going to cut a new hole for the new burner. The only problem is now i am left with the original hole sitting there loosing heat i could plug it up with some wool but will that be enough? or do i have to weld a plate over it to keep heat in?

One more question promiss...then i got some work to do. The burner hole that is there now like i said is on the side but also my forge is about 11 inches deep and the burner hole sits right in the middle (5.5 inches from either front or back) now when i cut this new hole so the burner will sit up at the top (like fig.2) should i put it right in the middle like that or should it be more towards the back of the burner if so how far back? and i remember reading somewhere that if it sits toward the back it should be angled slightly towards the front. if that is the case how close to the back should it be and how big of a angle forward if any?

THANKS guys sorry if theres to many details i wanna make sure i get this right the first time cutting multiple holes if i screw up will be a huge pain in the ass.
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Old 09-29-2015, 08:20 PM
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I've never seen any study done on burner placement, it probably wouldn't be difficult to find lots of votes for either type of placement and a few more besides. Most would probably put it in the middle.

You saw in my video that my forge body was a relatively flimsy piece of stove pipe. The body is only a form to support the wool, the wool is the insulation. Plug the hole with wool, weld over it later if you get around to it ......


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Old 09-30-2015, 10:08 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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ok thanks ray..yeh i know one if the bodies was real thin but didnt know if even that thin metal would benifit being a whole piece rather than having a hole in the shell...but thats goo anyway makes my job easier..going to go get it done
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Old 09-30-2015, 10:09 AM
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C Craft C Craft is offline
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How's about figure 4, it is a modified version of #2.

Something like this maybe. The picture is slightly out of focus and may not show as well as I would like it to but the burners are pointed upward, the resulting heat is more even when it heats the item being forged! Ed Caffery was the one who turned me on to this idea! If you look closely at the photo you can see two patches directly above the burners. That was the original position of the burners, pointed down to the floor of the forge. I had posted a pic of my forge in progress and Ed saw it and recommended the change.





The idea is it creates a swirling vortex. The main idea is to not focus the heat directly on the object being forged. Direct heat creates a hot spot instead of heating evenly!

I approached the forge idea different from some! I wanted to build a good one and do it only one time. To me the lining is expendable but the forge I can keep going for a long time! This pic is an old one and the forge has been remolded many times but the body has remained pretty much the same! Except for a few additions and improvements.

I weld so it has not been hard to make and modify the forge. It started life as a drop from a welding shop. A drop is a leftover from a pipe they used on a job. Often a welding shop will sell this for scrap price as they are little good to them.

My forge is 22" long, it has a 2" cap on each end that is lift-able and insulated with 2 layers of 1" K-wool, The floor has firebrick on it, that can be replaced, if the need arises.
The original diameter was 10" so if you do the math. That leaves me a use-able chamber of 20" X 6". Both ends will raise to allow me easy access or in case I need the extra length. The front has a slid-able door so I can close off the chamber if I need more heat. I have it set-up where I can run one or both burners, most of the time the one burner will do what I need it too!

As I said this forge has been re-worked several times, and I had a back fusions years ago so pretty much everything in my shop is on wheels. This is my forge/grinding cart.



Also this is the latest version of my forge. This is while I was working on setting the forge up for a blower system

.

The PID sets in a fan cooled box in here!





The PID controls a gas valve and once I run it enough to finish the calibrations I think I can get it too control the burners with very little fluctuation in the set temp!

I was told by some this would never work and I must admit it has been a job to get it calibrated but every time I run in now I get a little closer to perfecting it! It is PID controlled and when/if I can get it tuned to perfection it will run like a new Caddy.

Their is a fellow who runs one like this except his is a hot rod, it has five burners on it. However I think he told me only runs two most of the time now!! His name is Fred Rowe. Here is a u-tube link to a tour of his forge called Bethel Ridge Forge. In the video at 3:18 on the time clock he shows a close-up of his hot rod.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X9LPWeGIBc


He swears his has only a two degree fluctuation! So only time will tell. Tell me I can't do something and it only makes me more determined!!


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C Craft Customs
With every custom knife I build I try to accomplish three things. I want that knife to look so good you just have to pick it up, feel so good in your hand you can't wait to try it, and once you use it, you never want to put it down !
If I capture those three factors in each knife I build, I am assured the knife will become a piece that is used and treasured by its owner!

C Craft

Last edited by C Craft; 09-30-2015 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 10-01-2015, 09:24 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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Thanks guys.....C CRAFT i wish i would have looked at your post before i went and did things but oh well. Yours like you said is just like figure 2 but its rotated a bit. I don't think there would be much different maybe the heat would be slightly more even just cause it has longer to travel in the swirl before it comes back down on the work (this is all speculation). Either way i made a hole to place the burner as in figure 2 (horizontal at the top). It was easier than i thought but of course i have like 20 different hole saws. But they were all either not the right size or have big heavy teeth ment for wood. So i went to store and went to buy a 2 inch "milwaukee hole dozer" wich i have used on metal before but only up to 1/8 inch thick not as thick as the body of my forge wich is 1/4 inch thick but it worked great on 1/8. The guy at the store tries telling me the hole dozer wont do the job and tries selling me a $35 hole saw (hole dozer was $5 and change). Well anyway the hole dozer worked great even when i put it on completely horizontal to the forge where only the bottom of the saw touches the forge and as it get deeper more and more of the saw makes contact. No skipping all over and only using a very small amount of water sprayed on as lubricant. It definitely out performed what i thought it was going to it cut like butter literally. And didnt even mess up the wool or coatings. I pulled the wool out in that spot when i got to the hard layer of coatings i actuly used one of those tiny little saw blades that fits into a XACTO knife handle. Poked through the hard layer and used the Xacto saw to cut out the circle then simply used a grinding bit in a dremmel to smooth out the edges. Put my burner in (just sitting on bricks to hold in place and pieces of wool to help hold for test)and plugged up the original hole with wool and WOW! what a huge difference. Cant wait to get a better burner in there. Now i gota go weld the old hole closed and add a tube and set screws to hold the burner in the new spot. THANKS every one for the tips on placement of the burner HUGE improvement Thanks again
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  #9  
Old 10-01-2015, 09:50 PM
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dtec1 it ain't so with out some pics! LOL Seriously everybody likes to see pics of a forge. No one has the end all be all but there is almost always something I see about someone's forge or something I do with mine and I say next, I am gonna change that...................


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With every custom knife I build I try to accomplish three things. I want that knife to look so good you just have to pick it up, feel so good in your hand you can't wait to try it, and once you use it, you never want to put it down !
If I capture those three factors in each knife I build, I am assured the knife will become a piece that is used and treasured by its owner!

C Craft

Last edited by C Craft; 10-01-2015 at 10:41 PM.
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Old 10-02-2015, 11:51 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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i will deffinitly post pics as soon as i can. i left my camera in my car and i lent my car to my sis so she could go to massachusettes. But there really aint to much to see just a 11in deep by 5.5 inch (inner diameter) and i moved the burner hole from the side up a lil so its at a tangent horizontal on the top. i am going to weld old hole closed and put a tube and screws on the new one today.

C craft....i noticed in your pics first you had a venturi system then you changed it to blown right? When you had it venturi how did you have it hooked up. Did both burners feed from one tank? If so say you had a 0-30psi regulator and it goes to 2 burners the psi gets split right so the max on each burner would be 15 psi right? So the only way to run both at 30 would be to have a 0-60 regulator right? or is there some other way of doing the pipes to achieve this? I dont plan on doing this on this forge (maybe when i make a new one eventually) i am just curious
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Old 10-02-2015, 03:10 PM
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If you feed two burners from one regulator which is set for 15 psi each burner will have 15 psi assuming that your propane supply can keep up with the demand. A small 20 lb tank can freeze up pretty quickly with that much demand so the pressure could drop off rapidly.....


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Old 10-02-2015, 06:40 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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really huh? i would of thought the burners split the psi anyway i was just curious i aint crossing that line yet.

So today was spent finding a new pipe to cut and weld onto the side of the forge to hold the burner in its new position. So as i was welding i got to the point where i needed to flip the forge upside down so i could get at the bottom side of the pipe to weld it. So i had a lack of thought as i did this and forgot the brick was still inside and i probilly should of filped it very very carefully know that the bubble allumina doesnt stick very good. As i fliped it the brick fell out (the brick did not break) but the bubble allumina that was underneath and on the sides of the brick also fell out (well most of it) with the brick and it broke into like 4 or 5 pieces. So any way it is still in big enough pieces that it would be very easy to put it back together like a puzzle. My question is if i put it back together like a puzzle and i was thinking maybe putting some satinite on it to kinda hold it together at the cracks and onto the wall a bit. Would that work or no? On one hand it seems like it would work but on the other hand i was thinking that when i go to use some flux in there as it melts it would find those cracks real quick and making it through to the other coatings and wool therefore defeating the hole purpose of the bubble alumina. I am kinda going back and forth between trying to put it back togather or just starting over and putting a new layer of bubble alumina. The last time i put it on i used a lil more than half of what so if i started of i could probilly just cover what i need to but it wouldnt be all that thick. It would be great to hear what any one thinks about this and help make up my mind.
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Old 10-02-2015, 07:08 PM
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Why not just put the pieces back together and then put a thin layer of fresh alumina over that?


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Old 10-02-2015, 07:31 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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YEH i could do that see i told you my brain doesn't work all the time its like it goes out to lunch every now and then. I did think about putting some just in the cracks but since its not a consistent paste like material its more of a thin past with those hard lil bb sized balls in it i didnt think it would act great as mortar type of application. But adding a whole new thin layer sounds like a great idea.....

Also ya know the screws that go through the tube thats welded on the side. The set screws that actuly hold the burner in the tube. Well the old ones needed a wrench to move them so i want to add ones that have a lil handle like thing at the end or a large eye circle on the end so that way i can move them in and out with my fingers. I only had 2 here at the house so i went out to look for more and the only ones i could find are zinc plated. i know zinc plating can be dangerous when heated. But being in the spot where they will be holding the burner would they even get hot enough to let off fumes? if they would how can i get the zinc off can i burn it off (obviously out side and i wont be standing next to it while it burns. Or maybe using acid?
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Old 10-02-2015, 08:26 PM
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You can grind the zinc off but wear a respirator. If possible, I would use stainless screws because they won't oxidize and jam up like the screws you have now. Even so, you may need a wrench to turn them as the socket the screws thread into will oxidize and bind the screws. Still, if you want to turn them with your hands just weld a bar across the head of the screw....


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