Election 2012 Voter turnout.

[Ed Tipton]

Jim,Ed et al...I don't like those things either. And my fears and concerns are the same as yours....BUT...I don't think for 1 second that Mitt Romney or anyone else for that matter can do everything he has said or promised. I realize there were promises made that were never kept, And I don't agree with everything Obama has done, but Had Romney been elected, I doubt that all of his statements and promises would have been fulfilled either. In the end, I do believe that Obama has his heart in the right place...and I am not sure that there is anyone who could have implemented his plans without the cooperation of congress.
While it may be true that Romney has done many of the things he mentioned, it's also true that he had few if any others standing in his way. When you own the company, you make the rules. He wouldn't have that luxury as President...he would have had to sell it to congress, and that is far from a certainty. His intentions may have been 24K gold, but I believe reality would have frustrated him greatly. Being President is not the same thing as being the owner.
Like it or not, Obama is everyone's President for the next four years. I hope he's able to make some progress, and get some things done. I think congress needs to either lead, follow, or get out of the way.

[rscoffey]

What I couldn't square was Obama's talking about US energy independence while stopping the Keystone Pipeline and negotiation deals with Mexico and Brazil to loan them money for drilling so we may be able to purchase the oil from them. I may be a little slow, but that seems like we're paying twice for the same oil. Not to mention the loss of all the high paying jobs that would have been provided by the construction and operation of the pipeline.

Things became much more clear after I saw the documentary "Obama 2016". I highly encourage everyone to see it. It's not a hit piece, but a well done scholarly work.

By the way, I happened to hear the producer, Dinesh D'Souza speak and he related this story: During the filming of the documentary, he became friends/acquainted with Obama's brother George. Some months back, while he was at home in New York, his phone rings and he notices that the caller's area code is Kenya. Long story short, George Obama was on the phone. He said his son was seriously ill and needed medication and could Dinesh help him out. Mr. D'Souza did send him some money, probably not a lot by our standards, but a great deal by George's. Clearly, George was very grateful. After he agreed to send the money Mr. D'Souza asked him why he chose to call him and wasn't there anyone else he might have called? George said there was no one else to call and he called Mr. D'Souza because he was his friend.

I found the anecdote enlightening, to say the least.

[Julie Coffey]

I'm a Constitutional Conservative and Tea Party member and darn proud of it. Our family has a long standing history of grass roots Patriotism; we're a Mayflower family, my 5x great grandfather died at the hands of the British in a Sugar House prison during the American Revolution. We've had family members serve and/or die in every war through the Gulf. Like my father once said "Our family investment has run deep"; so yes I am passionate about it, and then came yesterday.

If I have to put my faith in something it is not President Obama, but rather in God.

[Dana Hackney]

Don't see how one could judge Romney's heart as being in the wrong place and, at the same time, say Obama's is in the right place. Besides, this is about thinking straight and not just feelings/emotions.

[cdent]

Originally Posted by Ed Tipton

.....In the end, I do believe that Obama has his heart in the right place...and I am not sure that there is anyone who could have implemented his plans without the cooperation of congress....

Hey Ed T,

Just thoughts that come to mind, but I don't see this as a qualifying reason to run a country.

Easy to look up. In '08 the share of debt for every citizen in the country was about 32k. Now it stands, less than four years later, at fifty-four thousand dollars per man, woman and child. We owe 35% more debt per person than the folks in Greece. You think Obama's looking out for the kids and our future. At this time, if the debt is divided up between U.S. kids under eighteen years old, they'd each owe about 220k.

I can clearly remember Reid-Pelosi-Obama ramming ocare through the system, saying things like 'if you want to read the bill it has to be passed first'. I suppose at least congress was involved, because that's how our constitution is set up. The president has introduced an average of five new regulations per day, quite a few over nearly four years. Maybe, many of these things are intentionally being kept quiet or can't become law through normal representation. Easy to look up, but the Washington Examiner reported just a couple days before the election, that the administration and the epa has put unprecedented manpower into new coal power plant emissions restrictions, due out in a couple weeks. Clearly timed for after the election, but ready in case he lost.

It's said we need cut out subsidies for big oil that are around two billion a year so we can pay down the debt and put Americans to work. Over ninety billion has been dumped into 'green energy' investments, nearly fifty years of mystery big oil tax breaks. The petroleum industry employs tens of thousands of Americans, I believe so far thirty-six of the 'green' companies that got billions have gone belly up. Sorry to jump around, but look up 'Quantitative Easing', and note that the money printing and spending of hollow currency is in addition to the borrowing and not part of the debt.

I can't for the life of me understand why a president would call me a racist, hater of poor or women and want to seek revenge on me in the voting booth.

Sorry to go long winded, but for me it goes beyond a feel good issue, only the best, Craig

[Doug Lester]

The people who we should really doff our hats to are the voters in Florida who stood in line for five hours to mark a ballot that took a half hour to fill out.

For all those who voted out there for whatever side, let me tell you something that poll watcher once told me as I was leaving after casting my vote when I lived in Virginia-now you have the right to complain.

Doug

[Cthulhu]

I'm probably gonna piss off a bunch of people with this, but eh.


I voted for Obama. I spent 20 years voting Republican, have 18 years in the military, and half that as a civilian LEO.

Obama has done a LOT for this country in a very short time, certainly in less time than it took to run the country into the dirt. Or do y'all think it's a glitch that the GOP wouldn't even acknowlege the 8 years of George Bush existed? For the first time in a party's history, the former President, Vice President, Secs of Defense and State were NOWHERE to be seen?

The deficit went up. Why? because President Obama put on the books the spending that GW Bush HID from us. That isn't Obama's debt, it's Bush's.

Wall St. is at it's highest levels. The Dow is up past where it was under Bush. Jobs are going up and unemployment is down. Two Unfunded, unneccesary wars are and have ended.

The GOP have been the most obstructive in over 200 years. After campaigning on "Jobs Jobs Jobs", what did they do? They attacked womens reproductive issues, and gay marriage. NOT ONE BILL for jobs. The GOP has done nothing to move this nation forward out of the mess they put us into.

I'm sorry if that hurts, but it's the truth. We would be further along if the GOP hadn't held this nation hostage to it's own partisan ends.

To the pipeline comment: That pipeline doesn't do us a lick of good. All that oil will get sold on the world market, to the highest bidder. Why should people destroy the environment in their town so Exxon can pocket another million and not pay taxes on it?

This president has had to put up with doing a thankless job, cleaning up a mess he didn't make, with one hand tied behind his back and a bear trap on his foot, and while enduring lies, slander and personal attacks DAILY. Attacks that no other president in our nations history have EVER endured.

And Mitt Romney? A guy who was born rich, who got richer doing a scam called the "Bust Out Scheme" (Google it. It's disgraceful) who considers most of us on this board beneath his notice (I don't THINK theres too many 1% knifemakers), and who thinks 47% of the people like myself (Disabled, poor and on Medicare/Social Security) as freeloading, do nothing bums. A man who, while cheering on the VietNam war, fled to France to avoid the chance to put his ass where his mouth was.


And who did Mitt Romney put on his team? The same people who were on the Bush team that got us INTO the mess we're in. Why would we want to go BACK to those people?

A candidate who lied SO much that even members of his own party and social class called him out on it, who refused to reveal his taxes to the American people(but demanded to see all of Paul Ryans), who we now know paid far less taxes than any of US (As in, none) for decades. This is a guy who raped American jobs and workers and had the audacity to stand up and say he'd fight for American workers while Bain Capital was forcing the workers at Sensata to LOWER the American flag and raise the Chinese flag on the days they were training their chinese replacements.

No, Obama is not perfect, and there are a multitude of things I don't like about his practices. But he HAS improved things in 4 years, and now has 4 more to continue the struggle to lift America back on it's feet. The GOP has done nothing but obstruct him, and said as much on the day of his inauguration. He HAS reached across the aisle, time and again, and drawn back a bloody arm each time. Will they continue to do the same, or will they stop their partisan nonsense and step up to do the peoples work as they were hired to do?

The America I fought for works together to overcome our adversity regardless of ideology, religion, or the color of our skin. In the army we were told we were all ONE color. Green.

The folks who express their unabashed hatred of President Obama (Who really, is more of a Moderate Republican, hell, St.Reagan couldn't get elected in todays' GOP) and blame him for situations not of his making have a choice now. Keep griping, Keep Obstructing, or pitch in and help. Lead, follow, or get out of the way. Thats the choice.

[Dana Hackney]

Yep, ya did. Amazing take on things. I do thank you for your service though.

Dana

Originally Posted by Cthulhu

I'm probably gonna piss off a bunch of people with this, but eh.


I voted for Obama. I spent 20 years voting Republican, have 18 years in the military, and half that as a civilian LEO.

Obama has done a LOT for this country in a very short time, certainly in less time than it took to run the country into the dirt. Or do y'all think it's a glitch that the GOP wouldn't even acknowlege the 8 years of George Bush existed? For the first time in a party's history, the former President, Vice President, Secs of Defense and State were NOWHERE to be seen?

The deficit went up. Why? because President Obama put on the books the spending that GW Bush HID from us. That isn't Obama's debt, it's Bush's.

Wall St. is at it's highest levels. The Dow is up past where it was under Bush. Jobs are going up and unemployment is down. Two Unfunded, unneccesary wars are and have ended.

The GOP have been the most obstructive in over 200 years. After campaigning on "Jobs Jobs Jobs", what did they do? They attacked womens reproductive issues, and gay marriage. NOT ONE BILL for jobs. The GOP has done nothing to move this nation forward out of the mess they put us into.

I'm sorry if that hurts, but it's the truth. We would be further along if the GOP hadn't held this nation hostage to it's own partisan ends.

To the pipeline comment: That pipeline doesn't do us a lick of good. All that oil will get sold on the world market, to the highest bidder. Why should people destroy the environment in their town so Exxon can pocket another million and not pay taxes on it?

This president has had to put up with doing a thankless job, cleaning up a mess he didn't make, with one hand tied behind his back and a bear trap on his foot, and while enduring lies, slander and personal attacks DAILY. Attacks that no other president in our nations history have EVER endured.

And Mitt Romney? A guy who was born rich, who got richer doing a scam called the "Bust Out Scheme" (Google it. It's disgraceful) who considers most of us on this board beneath his notice (I don't THINK theres too many 1% knifemakers), and who thinks 47% of the people like myself (Disabled, poor and on Medicare/Social Security) as freeloading, do nothing bums. A man who, while cheering on the VietNam war, fled to France to avoid the chance to put his ass where his mouth was.


And who did Mitt Romney put on his team? The same people who were on the Bush team that got us INTO the mess we're in. Why would we want to go BACK to those people?

A candidate who lied SO much that even members of his own party and social class called him out on it, who refused to reveal his taxes to the American people(but demanded to see all of Paul Ryans), who we now know paid far less taxes than any of US (As in, none) for decades. This is a guy who raped American jobs and workers and had the audacity to stand up and say he'd fight for American workers while Bain Capital was forcing the workers at Sensata to LOWER the American flag and raise the Chinese flag on the days they were training their chinese replacements.

No, Obama is not perfect, and there are a multitude of things I don't like about his practices. But he HAS improved things in 4 years, and now has 4 more to continue the struggle to lift America back on it's feet. The GOP has done nothing but obstruct him, and said as much on the day of his inauguration. He HAS reached across the aisle, time and again, and drawn back a bloody arm each time. Will they continue to do the same, or will they stop their partisan nonsense and step up to do the peoples work as they were hired to do?

The America I fought for works together to overcome our adversity regardless of ideology, religion, or the color of our skin. In the army we were told we were all ONE color. Green.

The folks who express their unabashed hatred of President Obama (Who really, is more of a Moderate Republican, hell, St.Reagan couldn't get elected in todays' GOP) and blame him for situations not of his making have a choice now. Keep griping, Keep Obstructing, or pitch in and help. Lead, follow, or get out of the way. Thats the choice.

[J. Doyle]

Who's obama gonna blame when the next 4 years go bad?

How long are people gonna keep a blind eye to the fact that eventually they're out of people to blame.

Whether he inherited debt or not is irrelevant. The obama administration doubled the debt they inherited in the last 4 years.

No getting around that.

And remember..........he was the one that so arrogantly said he could cut the debt in half and only need one term to do it.

[Ed Tipton]

It must be nice to be so sure of your actions.
I voted for Obama because I think he is the best man for our country at this time. Many people voted for Romney because they thought he was the best man for the country at this time.
I don't know how anyone can say that the debt that Obama inherited is irrelevent. That debt was owed...and had to be paid. The debt we owe today will also have to be paid...or written off.
I also served 11 years in the military, and I'm proud of having done it, and I was proud when I was active duty. I am a patriot of the highest order...and after having served in foreign duty assignments, I do have a basis for comparison of the U.S. vs other countries. I don't just talk the talk...I have walked the walk.
Maybe...four years from now...I will look back on yesterday and say that it was a huge mistake. That is certainly possible. But it's just as possible that in four years, it will be obvious to all that it was the right choice.
I am not absolute in my choice...but at least I voted for what I think is the best choice. I assume everyone else did the same. As I said in an earlier post...time will tell.
Either way, I doubt it will be the first or last time that I'll be proven right or wrong as the case may be.
For those who are adamently against Obama, I suggest that you consider that he IS our elected President...he WAS elected by a considerable margin by citizens from all parts of the nation. Crying about what might have been has seldom if ever solved anything. If you truely believe in this country, then act like it and step up to the plate and support our President....he is your President as well as mine.
If you are honest about things, you have to admit that Americans have been spoiled. We had it too good for too long...and now it's time to pay the piper. Personally, I believe that Obama has a vision of what America can be that I can buy into. We have not gotten ourselves into this mess because we were doing everything right, and digging our way out of this hole we're in is not going to be fun....for anyone.
No person of conviction is going to reverse their opinion here. If Obama proves to be our great mistake, then there is a mechanism for getting rid of him, but until that happens...he is the President.

[J. Doyle]

I don't consider it "crying about what might have been" at all. The facts speak for themselves.

The fact that he inherited debt is irrelevant. He had 4 years to make an improvement and he didn't. He instead doubled it. Six million more people are without jobs. Our permits to drill our own oil and mine our own coal have been cut in half.

How about the health care bill that NO ONE wanted but it was continually crammed down our throats anyway. With who knows how many riders attached that no one had a chance to read.....like gun control bills. Forcing us to take the health care that they choose for us and fine us if we don't.

And the "he's the president and he's your president too" argument has little effect on me. Look up his and especially michelle's (his wife) feelings on the US and the flag and the flag burning ceremonies that they attended together. Saying, a direct quote, that his goal is to make the US more like the governments of Cuba and Venezuela. He's said that he wants the US to be less powerful in a military sense so the world is more fair.....level the playing field a little. He's said the national anthem is too offensive and warlike and should be changed to something gentler. He wants control of the US turned over to the united nations.

The cover up in Benghazi where his administration sat back and let American citizens be killed then lied to the public. Or blames the Bush administration for the problems he inherited, but is quick to ride Bush's coattails on the war on terror and steps in and arrogantly claims all the credit for eliminating Bin Laden. "I did this. I did that. I ordered this and I approved that. I, I, I, I, I,.........blah blah blah.

And on and on and on. That's no patriot and no man that has the US peoples' best interest at heart. No sir.......he's not my president. I didn't vote for him and I don't believe he stands for what America is at all.

No offense to you personally Ed Tipton. I wish you the best.

But I'm done here. This is a fruitless conversation and it only leads down a bad road.

[cdent]

Ed Tipton and Chulhu,

I had some terrific response that was eaten by the internet somehow or another.

In a nutshell, you both read like dnc infomercials to me and maybe no one else. I comment because I don't believe talking points become fact just because they are repeated. I'd hope actual facts could be looked up.

Chulhu needs medicare. Ed t calls slashing 700plus billion from program 'paying the piper'. I think I'm conservative and figure I have to make my way through this life. Why do liberals always want something for nothing or to impose beliefs on others.

I'm sure I've never interfered in the legal preferences of a liberal, but I equally sure my and more importantly the quality of my family's life has been negatively affected by policies and regulations of the current administration.

Apologies to the host for creating hard feelings in his house, the best to all who visit here, Craig

[cdent]

Originally Posted by Ed Tipton

....If you are honest about things, you have to admit that Americans have been spoiled. We had it too good for too long...and now it's time to pay the piper. Personally, I believe that Obama has a vision of what America can be that I can buy into....

I keep getting stuck around here. You and Chulhu like to pedal in misery. What if there just isn't a bit of honesty here and I just don't want to be down on your level. Go ahead and feel guilty about what, I have no idea. Aside from bashing, what is the vision and where's it headed.

What's wrong with adjusting the areas you feel spoiled and paying your piper what you feel he deserves, while letting others feel just right or aspire to more. I think honesty would show we're all different and may not buy into your vision. If nothing else, I sense you wouldn't want me to tell you how to vote.

Only the best, Craig

[Ed Caffrey]

Well, I thought I would let this thread continue, and so far I commend you folks for keeping it civil. I'll leave the thread UNLESS things start getting nasty......if that happens I will bring the hammer down. Please feel free to keep the discussion ongoing.....just play nicely.

[Cthulhu]

Originally Posted by J. Doyle

I don't consider it "crying about what might have been" at all. The facts speak for themselves.

The fact that he inherited debt is irrelevant. He had 4 years to make an improvement and he didn't. He instead doubled it. Six million more people are without jobs. Our permits to drill our own oil and mine our own coal have been cut in half.

How about the health care bill that NO ONE wanted but it was continually crammed down our throats anyway. With who knows how many riders attached that no one had a chance to read.....like gun control bills. Forcing us to take the health care that they choose for us and fine us if we don't.

And the "he's the president and he's your president too" argument has little effect on me. Look up his and especially michelle's (his wife) feelings on the US and the flag and the flag burning ceremonies that they attended together. Saying, a direct quote, that his goal is to make the US more like the governments of Cuba and Venezuela. He's said that he wants the US to be less powerful in a military sense so the world is more fair.....level the playing field a little. He's said the national anthem is too offensive and warlike and should be changed to something gentler. He wants control of the US turned over to the united nations.

The cover up in Benghazi where his administration sat back and let American citizens be killed then lied to the public. Or blames the Bush administration for the problems he inherited, but is quick to ride Bush's coattails on the war on terror and steps in and arrogantly claims all the credit for eliminating Bin Laden. "I did this. I did that. I ordered this and I approved that. I, I, I, I, I,.........blah blah blah.

And on and on and on. That's no patriot and no man that has the US peoples' best interest at heart. No sir.......he's not my president. I didn't vote for him and I don't believe he stands for what America is at all.

No offense to you personally Ed Tipton. I wish you the best.

But I'm done here. This is a fruitless conversation and it only leads down a bad road.

With all due respect:

"The fact that he inherited debt is irrelevant. He had 4 years to make an improvement and he didn't. He instead doubled it."

It's not irrelevant. If your wife/kid/partner runs up your credit card bill, you still have to pay it. Same here.

He's had 4 years to fix what took EIGHT years to break, and with the Republicans refusing to do their part. Even as Obama was taking his oath of office, Republicans were having a private meeting and deciding that they would not work with him. Mitch McConnell openly admitted that the GOPs only purpose was to "Make Obama a one term president." How many knives could you forge if the people you're supposed to work with keep putting out your fire? For all the claims against him, he ain't Superman, he can't do it by himself.

Why did the deficit double? Because under the previous president, the one that the GOP pretends doesn't exist and won't acknowlege, didn't put two wars and much of his other spending on the books. He borrowed money from China but didn't put it in the ledger. Sorry, but thems the facts. Truth is, Obama is the lowest spending president in recent history. From Forbes (Who presumably know about things like money and spending....) http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickunga...-barack-obama/

"Six million more people are without jobs."
And that sucks. But again, you cannot lay it all on the President. In 2010, John Boehnor and Mitch McConnell stood up in front of the country and told us they were going to bring "Jobs Jobs Jobs" back to Americans. And when they and their whacky Tea baggers buddies (Since disavowed, so we can consider them a marriage of convinience) actually got elected, what did they do? I'll tell you what they didn't do, they didn't, and still haven't produced a single jobs bill. None. And just before they went to break, the GOP refused to vote for a bill that would help put returning veterans back to work! Read it again, NOT ONE BILL. Just Google "What happened to the Republicans Jobs promise" and read away. The President can't get anything through the Republicans, who have used the filibuster at a rate unheard of in this nations history. How can you not hold them accountable?

"Our permits to drill our own oil and mine our own coal have been cut in half."
And yet, our oil, coal and natural gas mining is at RECORD levels. http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...pendence-grows
What Obama did was shut down permits where Oil companies were just parking on the leases so no one else could use them. The permits that were shut down were not being drilled on.
But lets address something else. Does it make ANY sense to you to let Big Energy drill on our publically owned lands, in our national parks, pay the Goverment (Which is all of us, btw) pennies for the right to drill, and then SELL our National resources to China? Because that oil doesn't STAY here, sold to us at a lower rate because well, it's ours, and taken from our land, but being sold for millions on the world market, and we never see a dime of it. Worse, the big oil companies make millions and then don't pay legally owned taxes on it.

"How about the health care bill that NO ONE wanted but it was continually crammed down our throats anyway. With who knows how many riders attached that no one had a chance to read.....like gun control bills. Forcing us to take the health care that they choose for us and fine us if we don't."

Theres LOTS wrong with the ACA. It gives FAR too much money to the private insurance companies who already take too much without giving back. But it's a step in the right direction. Now, you cannot be dropped or refused for having a pre existing condition. Did you know that insurance companies list things like having a baby or donating a kidney as preexisting conditions and refuse people because of it? The ACA is saving lives, and already has. Heres a list of what the ACA actually does. I defy you to find anything bad in there.
http://www.randirhodes.com/pages/rrn...rticle=9945405

Of course, the best thing is for us to have a single payer system, or extend Medicare coverage to all who want it. We can afford to spend more money than the next 20 nations COMBINED on the military, force the military to buy tanks they don't want or need, but we can't afford to keep our citizens healthy? I thought we were supposed the bet BETTER than countries like France, not worse.

"He wants control of the US turned over to the united nations." So absurd I don't know where to start. You can of course, produce a verifiable video of this, right?

Benghazi? Seriously? Did you go this far off the rails when Bush ignored the warnings and 3000+ people died because of it? Did you not see where the Republicans refused to spend more money on Embassy (And by extention Ambassador) security? I dont' know how much professional experience you have doing investigations, but I have a lot, and I can tell you from experience that it takes weeks, months and sometimes YEARS to get to the bottom of a violent incident. It's even harder to do in an area like Benghazi. Were mistakes made? Probably. Likely. But the absolute filth being sprayed around regarding this incident to try and find something, anything, to smear this president, is inexcusable.

If we're going to move forward as a nation, the Republicans and their supporters are going to HAVE to start dealing in facts (Some of which I've provided above), and not lies and hyperbole.

President Obama has not NONE of the things the GOP has accused him of, and he's none of the things they claim he is. And these lies and attacks are getting in the way of moving the country ahead.

We're better than this, America. Time to step up and prove it. Timeto ask ourselves and our neighbors, are you an AmeriCAN, an AmeriCAN'T or an AmeriaWON'T?