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  #46  
Old 03-20-2016, 06:27 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Bill, I'm pretty sure the Solingen 14 teethies were simply ground down Solingen 14s. Gaddis says that original teethed knives were developed for the experimental model 18 using re-ground Solingen 14s....he also shows pictures of two of the first. It was almost one year after the development of the Attack-Survival 18 before a model 18 was made using an Orlando blade. And his narrative seems to make it clear that no teeth were cut into Randall knives before the development of the model 18 in 1963.

Let's do some interesting math. How many teethed Solingen model 14s were made during the Vietnam War, say... 1963-1972?

Adding the original 500 carbon Solingen 14 blades, a total of about 2200 carbon Solingen 14s and about 3200 stainless Solingen 14s were imported. Let's assume most of the original 500 were slowly sold off before 1963 and the introduction of teeth. That leaves about 1,800 carbon blades and 3,200 stainless.

We can guess that perhaps 40 percent of the Solingen 14 blades were recycled and became Solingen model 18 blades, This would mean about 1,100 carbon Solingen 14 and about 1,900 stainless Solingen blades, a total of 3,000 blades, were available to be made into model 14 knives.

Let's say that some small percent of the Solingen 14 blades were not sold because of damage during finishing, or were not up to standards, used for experimental purposes, etc. And some Solingen 14s were sold after 1972, post Vietnam, handled with the brass lanyard liner, thus are not really Vietnam era knives.

A reasonable estimate would be that less than 2,800 Solingen model 14s were made and sold during Vietnam time period. How many of those Vietnam era Solingen 14s had teeth?

Teeth were not available until 1963 and were not catalog listed until 1965 or so. Just for grins let's guess that about 20 percent of the Solingen 14 blades sold during Vietnam period were converted to teeth grind. That would mean that at most 500-600 Solingen model 14 knives were made with teeth. My brother carried one of those in Vietnam 1966-67 and lost it in combat in 1968... which reduces the possible surviving Solingen teeth model 14s to about 499. Add in 50 years of attrition, and we have... how many left?

These numbers are just estimates... but they are directionally accurate because the base numbers are factual...from Gaddis. And.. they are pretty interesting to those of us who like Randall knives of the Vietnam era. Regards.

Last edited by Jacknola; 04-22-2016 at 09:36 AM.
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  #47  
Old 03-20-2016, 06:53 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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Many of the "New Old Stock" blades were made into Model 14's well after the Vietnam war as well. Solingen bladed knives are believed to have been made well into the 80's and then all of the "Fighters" that were created after the fact. And then many of these blades have been cropping up as blanks also. I have a couple of them myself, waiting for me to do something with them.

I really don't think that there are that many sawteeth knives around.

Last edited by Ta2bill; 03-20-2016 at 06:55 PM.
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  #48  
Old 03-21-2016, 07:36 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Just to clean up some things, here are two pictures that show a Solingen 14 teeth overlaying a Solingen 14. This shows that it is easily possible to have used standard Solingen 14s to make the teeth model. Besides, re-reading Gaddis he wrote unequivocally that all the initial model 18 blades were made from Solingen 14s or 15s.

This picture has a Solingen teeth overlaying a Solingen 14... you can see the grind necessary to convert the 14 into the teeth 14.



This picture has an Orlando teeth overlaying an Orlando 14. You can see that there is a bulge in the front of the teeth that might not fit within the dimensions of a standard 14... however, I would guess that the original blank 14 had enough metal to make the teeth mode;.



Finally I would like to question one more piece of conventional wisdom. It is commonly quoted that the teeth model 14 was not a catalog item until 1967. Well, my twin brother ordered his teethed model 14 in 1965 and he says it was in the catalog he used, perhaps an insert?

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-28-2017 at 12:05 PM.
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  #49  
Old 03-21-2016, 09:16 PM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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Good post Jack. I didn't understand what you were saying earlier. When I got the knife you now own it was the first Teethed model I had owned where you could clearly see that it was from a humpback blade. So I guess all of the Solingen blades were humpbacks. You got a nice V/N collection.
Ronnie
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  #50  
Old 03-21-2016, 10:48 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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I thought what I wrote might be confusing, hard to describe in words, so I made those "overlay" pictures. All the post 1963 Solingen 14s were humpbacks (not too sure about the 1950s first 500), all had a narrow ricosso, 1/4-in slimmer than the Orlando blades, and the Solingen knives themselves were slimmer throughout their profile than their Orlando cousins except at the "hump"...

Furthermore, I think the Solingen blades were a little thinner too, though they were supposed to be 1/4-in stock. Regrinding the Solingen 14s for teeth from the original blade blanks made the point of the teeth model have more of a taper, more spear-point, than the purpose forged Orlando blade. I do like the shape, almost a "model 2" with teeth...

Talking with my brother tonight, he said he ordered his Orlando carbon blade teeth 14 in December '65, or January '66. In his order he wrote that he was about to be deployed to Vietnam. He received his knife in June along with a personal, hand written letter from Mr. Randall himself. He said he regrets he did not save that letter.

He mentioned again that Randall sent him a replacement Solingen direct to Vietnam in 1968 after his original was lost in combat, and even thinks the shop may have sent it free of charge, or on credit for payment when DEROS. When I told that story to Mr. Gaddis, he said that would be consistent with the type of person Mr. Randall was.

My brother also said the catalog he referenced when he ordered his original knife listed teeth option for the model 14 including the phrase "cut through the skin of a helicopter.." Now I am confused... because I thought the only teeth mentioned in a 1965 catalog were for a model 18. I'll need to research this...

Last thing... my brother struggled mightily in Vietnam to keep the rust off of his Orlando carbon blade.. mostly to no avail despite daily oil, grease, and care. No wonder stainless became the dominant material.

Last edited by Jacknola; 04-02-2016 at 10:37 PM.
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  #51  
Old 03-22-2016, 11:49 AM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Though this post is not technically on vintage Model 14 topics, the above discussion generated the following idea...so...

Usually one is wrong if he says "never" about Randall knife variants. However, I have never seen or heard of a Model-2 with teeth...ever. So, I am considering sending a circa 1973 knife to the shop and have them modify it like this...



Or...maybe not...

Just to report - I checked the electronic copies of catalogs. The 17th (1965) does not seem to list teeth as an option on Model 14s, and it only mentions teeth for the Model 18.. My reference partial catalog does not mention "cutting helicopter skin."

However, the 16th printing (1964) has an extensive section introducing the Model 18 with teeth and includes a quote from Major Ingraham saying it would cut through the skin of a helicopter.

My brother must have used the 1964 catalog, and requested teeth on a Orlando-made Model 14. Memories can be tricky. He was right about the quote, wrong about the option model.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-28-2017 at 12:05 PM.
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  #52  
Old 03-22-2016, 12:56 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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WOW! That Model 2 is insane!
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  #53  
Old 03-22-2016, 03:13 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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Way Wrong Solingen 14

Check this mess out!


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Randall-Made...AAAOSwxp9W8XhJ
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  #54  
Old 03-22-2016, 05:06 PM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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Wow that Mod. 2 should be against the law! Just too wicked!
Would the shop alter that knife with sawteeth?
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  #55  
Old 03-23-2016, 01:39 PM
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I sent a message to Randall Made Knives last night asking if they could add saw teeth. I received a short reply today, reading as follows:

__________________________________________________ __________

"We are not able to add saw teeth to any completed knife. thank you

--------------------------------------

Randall Made Knives
4857 S. Orange Blossom Trail
Orlando, FL 32839
Phone (407) 855-8075"


__________________________________________________ ____________

Dam... I was going to suggest naming the new blade the "Randall Jack - Fighting Stiletto" for me of course, or maybe for Jack the Ripper.

Of course this raises some question. Is the reason teeth cannot be added to any completed knife because the completed knife has a handle, hilt, hardware, blade polishing and stamp, etc., that would be damaged during grinding?

Or is it that the saw teeth are ground during annealing (when the metal is soft and ductile) , and the metal of the finished blade is too brittle to stand grinding teeth after the knife blade is hardened?

I suspect the latter case, which means a local machine shop couldn't do it either. But that is just my own engineering technical curiosity ... I appreciate the shop responding. However notice one thing... they said "any completed knife." That means someone could order a NEW model-2 with teeth. I just don't buy new knives, but it would be cool with the right handle.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-28-2017 at 12:06 PM.
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  #56  
Old 03-23-2016, 08:04 PM
dirty water dirty water is offline
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Sawteeth are not available on model 2's from the shop (any longer?), we CAN add this option only on blades that have the STN option already. What we will not do is regrind a blade to a ST grind....also the teeth are cut in just as the shop is about to finish before sending up to the office for final finishing...
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  #57  
Old 03-23-2016, 08:30 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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Too bad..... This is an incredible knife! I really need it in my collection!
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  #58  
Old 03-23-2016, 09:33 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Thanks for the reply Scott, especially the info on when the teeth are cut. (edit: I've edited this post. Both the Model 2 and the Model 14 Solingen were constructed from 1/4-in stock. The Model 2 has a different blade grind profile.)

If I understand Scott, there is no metallurgical reason saw teeth cannot be cut into a Model 2, even an older finished one. If the shop cuts the saw teeth just before final polishing when the blade is fully hardened and treated, then teeth can be cut now without undo risk of chipping or fracturing, I do suspect grinding the teeth on a finished knife would probably foul the polish on the blade but that could be addressed by a good machine shop.

From Scott's post, the impediment to RMK putting teeth into the Model 2 (pun intended) is simply that the shop doesn't offer the option on Model 2s and will not regrind a model's top edge line in a custom way to allow cutting saw teeth. The days of custom knife making for a particular client are over.

However, I've been looking very closely and comparing the edge profile, taper, grind-type etc., of this Model 2 blade with the Solingen 14 saw-teeth top edge... which is very blade-like. These profiles seems fairly close initially ... however, the 14 blade broadens at the base of the teeth because of a different grind profile. It looks like teeth could be cut without changing the Model 2 blade grind, though the Model 2 has a hollow instead of saber grind (?). Because of the grind, the teeth on the Model 2 would be thinner and less robust throughout their profile ... but then again the Model 2 blade is less robust too, so....

So absent metallurgic reasons at first glance it looks as if a good machine shop could add teeth to the Model 2. If I want to risk this knife, I might see what a skilled machine shop says, ... or maybe I'll buy a throwaway model 2 and try it with that first. This idea may be too cool to pass up "aftermarket" so-to-speak.

I wonder if the shop would go ahead and cut teeth on a new model 2 without changing the grind if requested by a customer, despite not officially offering the option? If so, the first time they did it would most likely to be the first saw teeth Model 2 in history.

Or if the shop made 500 special model 2s with a slightly different grind... maybe a double bevel instead of a flat saber (?) or hollow (?) grind ... giving a thicker blade closer to the edge as a base for saw teeth. Maybe add a fuller ("blood groove") in middle to keep weight distribution and balance the same as current. Add unique wooden handle, hilt, a special, it would probably sell out. ...... I'll accept a small royalty for the idea.

Last edited by Jacknola; 03-28-2016 at 10:44 PM.
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  #59  
Old 03-23-2016, 09:55 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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It would sell out within the first week
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  #60  
Old 03-26-2016, 06:54 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ta2bill View Post
The most obvious thing is that the hump Solingen blade has been reground eliminating the hump making the clip longer with a different shape. Crappy replacement sheath and possible altered thong hole on handle makes it a user knife only.

This is a standard Solingen 14 "humper" with red lines showing where the subject blade was altered.





This is the altered Solingen 14 showing the ground-down hump and the altered clip. Not ugly, but also not authentic.






Last edited by Jacknola; 07-28-2017 at 12:07 PM.
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