admiral options

[walker]

I seem to have opened the proverbial 'can o' worms' on this one!! I got a follow-up call from "Theo' at admiral (who still reminds me of Spicolli on Fast Times A Ridgemont High) and through frustration simply (and politely) ended the call. I have ,however, resolved to give it one more try by purchacing narrower strips in the 1/16"x 1" size, instead of 1/16"x 6". Hopefully it will be flatter . I've not the experience to recognize problems with grain structure, only that I need FLAT steel. One question for Mike Fitz; who will be your American alternate supplier(s)? Thanks to all, Walker

[fitzo]

Ya know, I think I got laffed at by Spicoli, too, when I called. I tried at the time to explain that Admiral's rep was coming into question on the forums, but got nowhere. It was a very frustrtating experience. I probably should have called back and insisted on speaking to Terry ( I repeat, a nice guy), but I was pissed, and needed to shed the agitation before I blew a gasket, so I didn't pursue it. One bar of steel wasn't worth the stress.

For S30V I'll call Crucible direct next time. They seem to take a bit more care shearing the plate. (One thing I'll point out, the narrower someone else shears your stock from plate, the more you'll suffer wavy pieces. If a six inch wide plate is wavy, 1" slices will look like rotini.) You should check with Bruce DaVita there about your other stainless needs; I'm simply not certain of what all they carry. He's at the Dallas Service Center. For my 1084 and 15n20 for damascus needs I'll deal with Kelly Cupples, who also sells 1095, 52100, powder steel, some nickel, etc. His stock isn't as comprehensive as Admiral, but he has what I need.

For my other stainless needs, I'll just deal with the knife supply houses. I've personally had real good luck with Sheffield's stuff. They claim it doesn't derive from Admiral, though Hitachi ATS34 is the same everywhere. I have a substantial stockpile (some ATS is still questionable quality with those danged pits and blems), so I'll only be ordering the odd specialty size for quite awhile. The sad part for me here is that Admiral is a 30 minute car ride away. I PREFER to use them; fast, friendly, and close.

Just so newer people know, this isn't the first, or second time, even, that steel quality has come into question. There were big messes with ATS34 and 154CM in the 80's, too. The fact remains that most steel is not intended for the fine finish we put on it, so the manufacturers are not concerned with the very tiny flaws we see as asteroid impact craters. Sounds like this newest wave of banding and such is a bit more than tiny pitting, though.

[J.Arthur Loose]

Terry does seem to be the only guy around that place who makes consistent sense. I sort of cringe every time I call and get someone else. My guess is that we really don't add up to enough business for them to worry about though...

[GANNMADE]

after looking for awhile I found the site .Worth a look they have all the 10xx series steels I forgot about the stainless
http://www.steelforge.com/products/step1.asp

[Dusty Moulton]

Hello Mike & Walker
This is a note for you. You might check out my last post, It is under the heading unusable ATS-34. It is in the General Knife Related Discussions Forum. It may help to shed some light on what is really happenning as all ATS-34 Steel is made by Hitachi but not all made the same way. They make sheet stock & they make bar stock. Bar stock is not sheared from larger sheets.
Regards
Dusty

[tom mayo]

I have shared this before................It is my belief that Admiral buys seconds and sells them to the knifemakers.....I base that on several purchases from them. I have talked to people who know about steel making, and the shifts get paid for the tonnage that is produced during their shift.......at the end of the shift when time is running out, steel gets rolled out that is not hot enough etc etc and comes out crappy..........Please understand that this is a theory on my part....but I have gotten some CRAPPY steel from those guys............and you can buy 154CM DIRECTLY from Crucible.....it costs about the same as ATS and is MADE IN THE USA!!!

[Dusty Moulton]

Hello Tom
Hope you had a good show in Vegas did you have a table or were you just able to walk around & enjoy your self.
Not sure if I buy all of your theory about Admiral buying seconds, I really feel that the problem lies in the the 2 diffrent processes of making either bar stock or sheet stock. I feel Hitachi is not up to par on their sheet stock manufacturing as they are working on a much larger area & trying to keep the same consistencies that they do when making the bar stock. It won't happen, especially if they are rushed as you suggested. the larger sheets have to leave much more room for errors than the MUCH smaller bar stock. I am still waiting to hear back from Hitachi through Terry at Admiral about the proper recompense for this. Admiral did their part and issued me a full credit (I am completely happy with my dealings with them) but I have an on going negotiation with Hitachi, If they are honerable & up front about their problem & willing to step up to the plate and make things right. then I will continue using ATS, if not then I will probably switch to 154 CM. After all as everyone keeps saying it is American & I Am An AMERICAN. Sorry to shout so loud but I have a son who is a lifer in the U.S. Navy & I am very proud of him & our country.
I guess I had better end this before I write a book or start rambling on about God & Country and get my self in trouble.
Regards
Dusty

[fitzo]

Thanks, Dusty, for the info. Very good knowledge to have. I learn more about steel every day, and I enjoy the knowledge. I don't like sheared plate, personally, I like barstock. Knowing it's a different process makes it even more undesirable. My gripe with Admiral comes from only two instances: the crappy condition of the bar I bought because of their shearing process at Admiral; and, the lackadaisical response got from "Spicoli" when I called them. No one likes to get laughed at when they call with a complaint. All my other dealings with Admiral have been ok. That one just frosted my butt is all.

Thanks, again.

[SteveS]

For S30V I'll call Crucible direct next time. They seem to take a bit more care shearing the plate.

I asked Bruce at Crucible about this. He says they don't shear anything. Everything is cut. No warped edges or anything.

The S30V and 154CM I got from Crucible looked cut to me. Crucible takes weeks to get, but I think I'll stay there for their steels.

FWIW

Steve

[JimmySeymour]

we used to shear plate all the time in the navy. you would be surprised how many ships run into each other. kept us welders very busy. anyway back to the subject in order to shear thin stock of only a couple of inches wide you have to place sacrafical stock underneath it. I'm sure they know this, but it would cost them quite abit of money to shear all that steel just for one piece.
plus I have no idea what the shearing would do to the grain structure. It would be best to stick to bar stock in my opion.

[Don Robinson]

154 CM was available before ATS34 came on the market. Before Hitachi came on the scene, 154 CM wasn't available in the thin sizes needed by knifemakers.

Hitachi came out with 1/6, 3/32, and 1/8", etc., so they got most of the custom knifemaker's business.

Hitachi's Steel was much cleaner at that time than 154CM because of a superior melting process.

Crucible has since changed their melt process, and are making cleaner steel than before.

I never use sheet stock because a blade should be made parallel to the grain direction in the steel, which is established in the rolling process at the mill.

Some of the Hitachi sheet steel rolls are sheared by the steel centers in the US, which are the aftermarket for small batch users. Those users are the knife supply companies and small manufacturers.

The steel center sometimes isn't aware or concerned about grain direction, and shear pieces off a roll across the grain, instead of cutting off a length and shearing bars with the grain direction parallel to the length of the original roll.

If you receive a "bar" of ATS34 from your favorite supplier and it has waves down the length of the bar, or it's curved like a bow, that usually means the dealer's steel center sheared the bar off the end of a roll.

This means, of course, that some of our steel problems are not due to a problem at the steel mill, rather the problem is created when a steel center shears stock off a roll of steel.

I buy all my ATS34 bar stock from Koval, and have never had a problem with it. Before, I shopped for the best price, and sometimes got a piece with waves that had been sheared across the grain. I realized what was going on, and stopped ordering steel from that supplier.

You guys who use sheet stock for blades should orient your blade length parallel to the grain direction. If you cut a blade across the grain, that causes the blade to warp while grinding and heat treating it because of the relieved stresses in the steel.

Try it, you'll like it. My blades don't warp.

This doesn't address Dusty's and other's problems with visible faults within the steel. I've never had that problem, and certainly hope I never do.

[Mike Hull]

Originally posted by Don Robinson
154 CM was available before ATS34 came on the market. Before Hitachi came on the scene, 154 CM wasn't available in the thin sizes needed by knifemakers.

Hitachi's Steel was much cleaner at that time than 154CM because of a superior melting process.

Crucible has since changed their melt process, and are making cleaner steel than before.

I never use sheet stock because a blade should be made parallel to the grain direction in the steel, which is established in the rolling process at the mill.

The steel center sometimes isn't aware or concerned about grain direction, and shear pieces off a roll across the grain, instead of cutting off a length and shearing bars with the grain direction parallel to the length of the original roll.

When 154CM was taken off the mil spec list, the makers here quit vacuum smelting it, consequently, it was full of inclusions, pits, etc.

Makers quit using it because of that, and the size problem too, as mentioned above.

The Japanese do vacuum smelt ATS34, and of course supply it in all the right sizes for knifemakers, and it became very popular.

Crucible is(I believe) vacuum smelting 154CM again, and I hope it gains in popularity, as it's supposed to be much cleaner than before(the 1980's).

On the grain direction of sheared plate;
Back a number of years, in one of the older "Knives Annuals", there was an article on one of the older makers who bought some steel in a mill roll.
When cutting stock off for his knives, he always made sure to have the grain going lengthwise with the blade.

One day he tried it differently, cutting the stock so the grain ran perpendicular to the blade direction. He said it cut way better than the previous blades.

I can't remember what year it was in, the makers name, or the steel, but I do remember the result.

[Don Robinson]

Yeah, Mike, but it probably cut better because he ground it during the dark of the moon.

[T L Smith]

Mike,

Hitachi quit vacuum smelting ATS-34 years ago and they now use the same Argon gas smelting process that crucible uses.

Tom

[Mike Hull]

Originally posted by T L Smith
Mike,

Hitachi quit vacuum smelting ATS-34 years ago and they now use the same Argon gas smelting process that crucible uses.

Tom

Sounds good to me.