Surface Grinder decission help needed

[Messinger]

Ok, I've saved up for a surface grinder. I can go one of two ways:

1) $1,000 to have a Harbor Freight model delivered new.
2) Buy a used (uninspected) good-name grinder for ~$400 and pay $600-700 shipping. (no used equipment available locally)

What would be better? An old used Boyer/Harig/KO/etc. or a new HF? It's going to cost about the same to get either. I don't mind doing a little clean-up work on an old grinder, but don't want to do any double-your-cost rebuild projects.

What do you suggest? (Hi Don )

-Ben

[Ray Rogers]

Personally, I'd go with the HF unit. When a company finally replaces a piece of capital equipment that cost $6000+ initially and you get to buy it for $400 you can expect it will need a little work. Plus, there probably is no warranty of any kind. Many of those big commercial units have 3 phase motors and that could be a problem for you. Finally, if space is an issue, they will likely be much larger and heavier than the HF unit.

I have the Grizzly version of the HF model and have been very happy with it .......

[luc]

Hey Ben!
You might want to look into the surface grinders from Grizzly, and I think Enco has them as well. I have always found that even though alot of the tools come frome the same factories over seas, Harbor freight seems to be of the lowest quality. I try and never buy anything over $30 dollars from HF.
Just my .02 cents.
Good luck!
Lucas

[TexasJack]

Somewhere around here is an entire thread regarding Grizzly's. It's certainly not the very best, but nothing touches it for the money. And some folks around this forum have managed to modify the Grizz quite nicely!

I've got one, and I'm quite happy with the value. The boxes it came in were literally destroyed in transit, but the thing is a tank! It came through without a scratch.

[Kevin Wilkins]

I think Ray gave you some very good advice!

I dont know about the new machine you mentioned, but many of the Far East machines are of good quality for the price. If you are experienced working on, maintaing and repairing machinery, then an older, high qiality machine is great. If not, the perhaps a new machine will get you there better than a frustrating experience with an older one.

That said, my surface grinder was made in July 1942, and it's still rocking and rolling!

[Ed Caffrey]

This is something I can shed light on first hand. I did about 6 months worth of researching before I purchased my surface grinder. As mentioned, must of the Boyer/Shultz and other such "quality" name machines have been run thorugh the mill by the time they are up for resale. Usually substancial work is required to make them right again....of course their are exceptions. I knew I wanted a 6x12" machine, and after many exhausting calls, I was directed to a gentleman in San Diego, Ca. who was/is an importer of machinery. Once I convinced him that I was not interested in importing anything, he opened up and told me the following:

" All import 6x12" surface grinders are made in the same factory." "They all arrive via ship in crates of 36 machines." "Everyone of them has the "Central Machinery" emblem on them, and all are painted grey when they arrive." "Once the crates are unloaded we check our orders and unpack the number required for Grizzly, Jet, etc. Those machine are repainted, logos are attached, then they are re-crated and shipped to the retail outlet." "The reason there is such a cost difference is due to our unpacking, painting, re-packing, and shipping......of course the porfit margin of the company is added once they receive the machines." When I asked about the machines headed for HF, here was the reply.... "We never unpack the machines headed for Harbor Frieght. They are counted, loaded onto a truck, and shipped.......we are only a middle man for the shipping."

Now, this is not to say that this person's company handles all machinery that is imported, just relaying what I was told during our conversation. After this I order the HF surface grinder, and have been very happy with it's performance for the last 4 years. At the time I ordered mine, the Grizzly surface grinder was $1,295, the jet was $2,300, and the one sold from J&L was $2,700. All three machines were identical except for the color and the stickers/name plates. The one thing I will suggest.....purchase a GOOD fine pole mag chuck. The mag chucks that come with, or can be ordered for these machines are wide pole, poor quality chucks. I had one, and the first thing that happened was a folder blade got launched across the shop and stuck in the wall! A good fine pole chuck isn't cheap, but it's well worth the cost!

[AUBE]

this has nothing to do with surface grinders but i noticed Ed was told the machines were all by "central machinery" i have been using their 6x48 sander for about 12 or so years and other than changing the occasional bearing(once a year or so) i have had no problems what-so-ever..the motor is still running strong. now the name brand sears craftsman sanders ive used..one lasted me 6months, its replacement lasted me about 2-3months before i had tracking issues, motor issues, bad bearings etc. deltas normally last me 2 years. ryobi about 2years. in this case the offbrand kicked butt.
of course a surface grinder is much more intricate than a belt sander, just my 2cents.

-Jason Aube

[CWKnifeman]

If you already have an end mill you can do the surfacing with it instead of buying a new toy. If you do not have an end mill the high/low speed one from HB 4/5th HP will do the trick. All you need is the end mill, a 4 inch cone rock from MSC/Enco, and a maganetic bed, and even an auto-feed from littlemachineshop.com . All the above can be had for around $750.00 and all new. You can only take about2 to 3.5 tenthousands off at a time but it works great, within 0.5 thethousands variation on a surfaced bar.

[Geno]

Hey, the tool man here.
There is a lot of info on surface grinders, including building your own, but tools are worth every effort to get the right ones for the job.
Grinding on a mill...is bad for the mill, dust in slides(abraisives), vibrations to the bearings,and slow travel which creates heat and warpage. It can be used, but not quite the right tool for thr job.
A new machine is nice, but I like the old dinosours myself.
It depends on IF you have the abilities to do the repair work yourself.
Tighten gibs, grease acme's, it's all a part of maintaining the equipment.
You can find some threads here about building your own, I'v made two, both work well.

Generally, you get what you pay for, so be wise and ask questions.
If you have the knowledge, used is best for the money.
If you don't know, new is best.
If you are a poor boy(like me) you'll make a couple to start until you can afford the upgrade. Just my .02 cents.

[CWKnifeman]

Originally Posted by Geno

Hey, the tool man here.
There is a lot of info on surface grinders, including building your own, but tools are worth every effort to get the right ones for the job.
Grinding on a mill...is bad for the mill, dust in slides(abraisives), vibrations to the bearings,and slow travel which creates heat and warpage. It can be used, but not quite the right tool for thr job.
A new machine is nice, but I like the old dinosours myself.
It depends on IF you have the abilities to do the repair work yourself.
Tighten gibs, grease acme's, it's all a part of maintaining the equipment.
You can find some threads here about building your own, I'v made two, both work well.

Generally, you get what you pay for, so be wise and ask questions.
If you have the knowledge, used is best for the money.
If you don't know, new is best.
If you are a poor boy(like me) you'll make a couple to start until you can afford the upgrade. Just my .02 cents.

If you don't know how to do it you say it can't be done as some would say. Gene as for the heat build up is concerned there is none when you use a 58 RC cone rock to do the surfacing. James Parks (Blademan) and myself have been using this method for surfacing steel for over 2 1/2 years, and as for the bearning problems there is none. These Cone Rocks are the same type of stones used on regular surfacing machines. Basically it just depends on how much machine you want: My point being that if you get a surface grinder you have a surface grinder; but, if you get a mill you have a machine that can do surface grinding, milling, and drilling as well as tapping of threads with the use of a tapmatic. You see it becomes a matter of versatility.

[Kevin Wilkins]

I'd agree with Geno. Using a milling machine for grinding is a good way to ruin the milling machine. It's like buying a new sedan and using it to pull a plow in the field. Sure it can be done and if you surface grind one or two blades every once in a while... and try and keep ALL the grinding dust cleaned up... you can get away with it. For a time. There is a reason why surface grinders and milling machines are two different machines. If a mill made an ideal surface grinder, no tool shop would buy a surface grinder. You can also do cylindrical grinding on a metal lathe, but it is abusive of the lathe just like surface grinding is abusive of the mill. There are special grinders for cylindrical grinding and if you do cylindrical parts to high tolerances, you'd need one. Thank God foldermaking doesnt require that machine too!!

If you have a chance to get a surface grinder, get one! Since I have mine, I can't imagine making folders without it. It is one of the most deceptively difficult machines I have worked with. A great deal of experience and care are needed - as well as the right wheel for the material to be ground - to get a good, even surface on the part. It is also a potentially very dangerous mahine - even a lethal machine should the wheel shatter when turning. Read up on it at the library, go slowly and try and get someone experienced to help you get it set up and running. Don't get frustrated, surface grinding highly alloyed toolsteel looks easy... but it ain't!

[Messinger]

Just wanted to check in and say thanks for the comments, ideas, and suggestions. At this point I'm still shopping around, but I'll keep you posted.

-Ben