Poll--Should there be a Kit Knife Association?

[Paul3]

Should there be a Kit Knife Association(KKA)??? and would you join?

Should there be a Kit Knife Association?

I belive it would slow if not stop the missrepresention of Kit Knives being passed off as a handmade by others that are not the maker.
Once accepted as a Kit Knife assembler/customizer in the Kit Knife Association(KKA) ,After meeting certian requirments, The member would qualify to purchase a KKA stamp to mark his or her kit knife . This would ,I belive ,help protect the actual maker and the buyer.
Once this became known to the public I think it would curb the selling of anothers work by some that would missrepresent the makers work as thier own.
The KKA could even be an offshoot and or part of The American Bladesmith society or the Knifemakers Guild to help even more to stop the missrepresentation of selling others work as thier own.
So, If a buyer wanted a true Darrel Ralf knife and not a DDR kit knife he would instantly be able to tell the differance without being an expert.

If any disagree with my opinion would you please email me with why,I am always willing to learn* MoG_Paul3@hotmail.com *

[SharpByCoop]

Hi Paul,

You bring up very legitimate points. I am willing to support the idea, along with you. But, what this would entail would be LOTS of time spent organizing and managing an association. Not me. I don't have that kind of time, but maybe others do.

If the main task was to somehow police the industry the members would be 'preaching to the choir'. Those that were on the fringe wouldn't care to join anyway.

Sure I can bring up many points that might be a hurdle, but who ever let THAT stop a good idea!

Using 'Kit Knife Association' and the 'American Bladesmith Society' in the same sentence is NOT going to gain any support, although you mean well. Not even close.

And why email you privately with disagreements. Stand there and take it like a man! Fight for your thoughts! Good post.

Coop

[Paul3]

Please don't start a argument here. That was not my intent nor do I desire it. The reason I made two post was to get as much feedback from all that this Idea could effect if the KKA came into exsistance. These 2 polls are set for 10 days only. I am just looking for a consenses on how the true custom maker and Kit assembler would view the idea of a KKA.
All and I do mean ALL of your comments and Ideas are welcome It is ok to be brutal and angrey if you feel that way about the Idea. That way I get an accurate idea if the KKA would be accepted by most or Rejected by most.
I did not mean to break the policies of CKD by posting two polls (The reasons are stated above why I did this.)

[Paul3]

I'm Puzzeld. Why so many views and so few post. Does that mean no one cares one way or the other or what.
PLEASE VOTE VOTE VOTE!!!!
PLEASE VOTE VOTE VOTE!!!!
PLEASE VOTE VOTE VOTE!!!!
PLEASE VOTE VOTE VOTE!!!!
PLEASE VOTE VOTE VOTE!!!!
PLEASE VOTE VOTE VOTE!!!!
PLEASE VOTE VOTE VOTE!!!!
PLEASE VOTE VOTE VOTE!!!!

[jakano]

sounds like a good idea to me but i would change the name of it.The acronym KKA sounds to much like another group of folks who im sure you dont want to be associated with.

[Chuck Burrows]

I'm Puzzeld. Why so many views and so few post. Does that mean no one cares one way or the other or what.

Paul - maybe, but in general posts have been slow here on CKDF recently and they have almost always been slow over the weekend at any time since I've been here over the last 15 months - give it some time - also remember this is has been a VERY contentious subject so many may just be gun shy of the subject.

[Paul3]

Yes , this is a touchy subject and as far as being gunshy i think if they vote it would put the subject to rest once and for all one way or the other.I hope this poll dosen't start an argument or cause bad feelings.It's just a poll to see how every on feels about the subject.
I'm not going to start one because I don't have the education or smarts to setup or run such an Association.

[KNAdmin]

Paul,

As the owner of this site, forum and the knifekits.com company, I was forwarded your message regarding the association you're in search of starting.

Actually, you can find 100's of posts pertaining to this very subject right here on the forums, if you take the time to do a search. Many of the industry's biggest names have weighed in with their opinions and I'm sure you will find this research enlightening.

I recommend that you do your personal best to correctly represent your product, whatever degree of "handmade" that it may be, and handle your personal customers with respect. In fact, I recommend this to all people in all trades and industries, not just this one.

We don't need more discussion about what is right or wrong. If a person doesn't attempt to understand this coming in, then you nor I can teach them.

As far as associations are concerned ...
There are too many associations in this industry already that are vague and nonproductive. The ones that are good for the business already know what they define as acceptable, so we can not improve on this, only charge money and take people's time to mimic the same results.

However, if you want to talk about interest in association formation, then let's talk about the formation of an association that can help "all" knife industry people grow this industry base and generate larger markets for the ongoing proliferation of knives (all types) that currently exist. We don't need further definition on "how" to make and represent knives. We need our future focus to be on the larger, and least addressed issue today ... how to make knives more viable as a growing industry. If someone wants to raise this issue, then I'll put my money where my mouth is ... like you see before you.

If I had the income being generated by the current associations in this industry at my own disposal to use for the common good of our business ...

... never mind ... it'd probably necessitate another poll!

Alex

[Geno]

Hello, My name is gasoline.
I have been a custom maker by every definition.
For decades I have broken the rules about this craft, so this might not suprise anyone here who knows me.
Kits have been around longer than I have and will be here when I am gone.Many here at CKD started with a kit knife, or gave them as Christmas presents,ect...
Today I make a pretty good living bringing those two worlds together.
I custom make kits for individuals to finish out themselves.
I often start with several pages of blueprints, have blades custom ordered, finished to any level desired, in a damascus steel that they most often would never make themselves.
I continue to sell my steel in several countries on contenents all over the world, and have a great repeat business too.
(God is good to GenO)
I'm having a ball in the custom kit business
How do they sound together Les?
Or is every "custom" knife made by a single person?
I would hate for an owner of a collaboration knife to think that his treasure was worth less because more than two hands touched it.Chances are it could be worth a lot more because of the combined efforts, ya think?
Everyone is entitled to an opinion.
Kits are cool to start off with.
Many will be content to stay there having fun.
To hear they have NO PLACE in the custom knife world kinda makes me giggle.
Are all kits bad because some are factory made?:confused:
There can also be a LOT of hand work put into these creations.
This again seperates them from factory knives(we shy away from).
Les, I thought these forums were for the interest of making knives by hand, learning the craft, and encouraging others to accell in thier abilities.
A man(or woman) who invests 30-40 hours in a piece has the right to feel good about his accomplishments, but that is my opinion.
Most of us are here because of the craft, not the title.
Technically, lots of custom knives have factory parts,ie,corby type rivets, synthetic materials like macarta, G-10,or plastics, folder hardware like pivots, screws, ect... What about the steel? wasn't most blades made from factory steels?Where is the line?
Most people don't know the difference between a custom, handmade, or kit unless we teach them the difference.
Does every custom start with blueprints?
This does not HAVE to be confusing.
OUR limits are put there by ourselves.
Some of us do not wish to live in molds.
Be blessed.

[justice]

i think if we take out the word kit and just stick with custom knife Association(cka)this would include every aspect of custom knives. so that even if you dont forge your own blades and just engrave or just heat treat you can join. and join just as an engraver or a blade smith or kit building or what ever you do to add to the art of knives. then there should be skill levels with in each sub craft and thay would be cka certified for what ever craft thay use in knife customizing at a certain level and make that level a world wide standard. how do we test this standard? by using the other guilds/Association/society's own tests if thay are members of those other guilds/Association/society's and have passed there test's then thay are in as long as there guilds/Association/society's are a respectible group.
now this does not encompis every aspect but the big ones are covered. the smaller things like file work and engraving could be tested at the cka table at the custom knife shows at first. then eventualy full cka shows that would have the the other
guilds/Association/society's exibiting/giving tests/classes bringing there groups to more people and there by making it easyer for them to get more members(and for craftsmen to become members)creating a network of makers builders and even suppliers furthering the entire industry.
then as cka members we could go to a cka show and take the 'American Bladesmith Society' test'sor some other groups tests and once you pass go get cka certifided for that craft same day
i think this type of association could help generate larger markets

This again seperates them from factory knives(we shy away from).

i love to customize factory knives it gives you a huge selection to chose from


....justin

[Paul3]

Thank you Geno and Coop and Darrel and all you Knifemakers and CKD Admin. As I now understand it , It's an individuale and personal thing. You are honest or you are not. Another association will not curb the dishonest one's who missrepresent the product they sell and the honest ones are already doing the right thing.
It is a personale thing.As for me when I put the work and time into any project wether Knife related or not I always mark my work. To be as fair and honest as I can I am planning on getting a stamp or two with "Cusomized by" and "Kit Knife" on them I would probably stamp the Bolster or Back spacer Depending on the look I am trying to achieve. I personaly just want to mark the product for identification down the road 60 or 80 years so it will always be known that the product is and was always a kit knife.I think and feel this will protect the public now and in the future.

Maybe there has been to much said on the subject. Maybe some one will start a National Kit Knife Club insted of an association ( I'll Join).
CKD/Admin. You may Close this thread if you want.It seems to bring up hard feelings. Thank you all I have learned what I needed to.

[KNAdmin]

I love our kits (including Geno's which are basically one-off knives!)

Our kits are the greatest thing that have hit the custom knife scene in 100 years or more. They are the best quality, the best designs and without question, the best professional learning tool that a new hobbyist can acquire. They are cool, they reveal the artist's inherent artistic skill and they are enjoyable for all who associate with them, without question.

However, they are a beginning in a long series of steps necessary for a knife maker to arrive at a high-quality self- expression handmade-from-scratch knife, not the ending. Yet, they are the single best starting point ever devised for entering this hobby, and even this marketplace. They create excitement in this industry and that's something that this industry needs a major dose of!

What anyone reading this thinks, assuming you oppose what I just stated, is irrelevant to me. I know what I know and I have put my own company's money on the table to find out, and to prove with visible, ongoing results. I'm no longer looking for proof ... and I can put it on the line! Look at our makers work ... it's that simple!

If you can impact this business more than we have, increase the skill set faster or more efficiently that us, do it! Don't talk about it ... go make it happen!

Alex

[SharpByCoop]

Justin-- Great idea. A society or organization that is inclusive of many aspects of this field, and not exclusionary. Cool!

Geno-- You have a way with words and a spirit that just don't quit. Good for you! (...good for US!! )

Alex-- Well put. As always. Thanks.

Paul-- You will learn that there is a dynamic about these threads and dialog that the original poster has no control over. Nor should you attempt to stop any good dialog from occuring.

I quote Emerson: "The true goal of preaching (and teaching), was to wake people up to their own potential. It is not instruction but provocation that I can receive from another mind."

These posts 'provoke us' in a very good way. We are forced to think out the answers and say it in a manner that works for us as individuals, and yet doesn't offend other's sensibilities.

There are no hard feelings. Only strong opinions. And they are all valid. The CKD has always been the best place for spirited dialog without the flames. What you are reading is passion. I like that!

Let it go and let it grow!

Coop

[Osprey Guy]

I've stayed out of this for the past few days...I guess I wanted to see where it was headed before chiming in with my thoughts...

It's no secret that I'm a great admirer of kit knives. Although I always liked knives, it never even occured to me that I might be able to make my own. Then late one night a couple of years ago, I stumbled onto a website showing the high quality kits put out by Alex and Darrel, and my life was changed forever.

Since that time I've made more than my share of kit knives. I've been bitten by the knifemaking bug about as hard as anyone can be bitten. I've taken my workshop from zero to substantial in a relatively short period of time. On the way I learned a lot,...and not just about making knives.

I found out that I could actually do things for myself that I previously thought to beyond my ability...Simple stuff like plumbing and electrical and carpentry...stuff that previously seemed like some dark mystery...I found I could deal with everyday household problems that in the past, would have immediately caused me to pick up the phone and hire a plumber, electrician, etc.

More importantly, I also learned a lot about people...I now saw the world through a different set of eyes...Knifemaking opened a whole new world for me...and the kits are what got me there plain and simple.

For all that I have to be thankful to the Classic Kitknives, they have been but a (critical) first step on my knifemaking path. I've probably taken them about as far as I can, and am even now in the process of weaning myself off of them.

I've made my own scales, swapped out bolsters for my own, embellished the hell out of them, and am now making my own blades. Once I become more practiced grinding my blades and in making my own liners, I'll be on my way to my goal of sole authorship, high art folders. In spite of others trying rush me out of the kits, I've been in no great hurry...Heck, I've been having way too much fun (and success) with the kits!!!

I feel the new level of kits has already had and will continue to have a powerful, positive impact on custom knifemaking (After all, they sucked me in ). There will always be a handful of nasty types out there giving kits a bad name, but then there are nasty types who give all custom knifemaking a bad name. The extraordinary education and exposure provided by the kits far outways any possible (and incredibly minor) negatives.

Do we need a kit knife association?...I for one don't think so. To what end?...To help police the nasties?...Coop and Alex have already spoken to that... To help other kit knife makers?...Isn't that what these forums are all about? A kit knife club on the other hand makes perfect sense to me and I would strongly endorse the idea, and lend my encouragement and support in any way I could.

As Alex says, what we need is a way to expand the bigger picture. Custom knifemakers as a rule tend to think small. Most are trying to fight over the same small piece of pie. There's a whole world of potential customers out there...There's a whole world of people who don't even know there is such a thing as a custom knifemaker and in general, are fascinated when they're exposed to it for the first time. Once again, the kits can play a major role here.

I'm sure I could go on for many hours about all the good things that can come from the world learning more about custom knives, and a knife organiztion which had a united goal of furthering that education...


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[DC KNIVES]

Well said Dennis. In the Knives 2003 Annual, Dexter Ewing did an article about kit knives and there place in this industry.I was fortunate to be included in the article about being a knifemaker who started from building kits. Like Dennis it changed my life and I have been making my own for almost 10 years,although I don't remember having as nice as kits as Alex and Darrel put out.Enjoy them, learn from them and if the disease gets you start making your own. Dave