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  #1  
Old 11-07-2017, 05:29 PM
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Grayshadow95 Grayshadow95 is offline
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Heat treat D2 anthology

Got a handle put on the blade so I could sharpen and do some testing:
IMG_5056-1.jpg
IMG_5057-1.jpg

I left the "case-hardening" to see how it stands up to testing.

Got the edge close to final sharpness (yes it is quite hard! thank God for diamond hones!) and tried the brass rod test. The smallest round brass I have is about 1 inch in diameter, not ideal, but everything else I have is larger. Put the blade on the rod so the secondary bevel was flat on it, then raised the spine up a little more. Don't know if it was because my eyes aren't so great or the blade is so thick, but even pressing down as hard as I could with both hands, I couldn't see any deflection of the edge. I rolled the blade along the rod the full length of the straight part of the edge a couple times. I couldn't detect any roll-over on the edge with either my thumb nail or a sewing needle, and no chip-out.
So far so good!

I am now working on fully sharpening the edge. I have 3 diamond hones, 600, 800 and 1200 grit, and several traditional stone hones starting with very coarse up to an 8 inch fine white hard Arkansas stone that is about 4000 grit. The white stone puts a wonderful finish edge on a blade, then I use a barber strop coated with rosin to remove any burrs. While sharpening I do thumb nail tests to check for any flat spots along the edge that need to be worked out.

I don't have any hemp rope, so any other suggestions for testing the edge retention? I thought about cutting up a corrugated cardboard box because I know it is hell on a blade edge.
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  #2  
Old 11-07-2017, 09:30 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Al, the cardboard is good.

It's cheaper too, like free. I always use the cardboard test as it has some dust grit in it, especially if it's recycled. Last knife I tested for Dtech or Dave I went through about 20 feet of cardboard before I could see the edge. See the edge, means looking down on the edge you shouldn't see any shiny spots. A shiny spot is a dull spot. I had sharpened it to 1000 grit as that is a good working edge, or as some say a "butcher's edge". The blade was S35VN steel and was quite abrasion resistant as that steel has 3x more Vanadium than D2, plus Niobium for a finer grain.
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  #3  
Old 11-08-2017, 06:51 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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Ok First Awesome job on the handle!!!
So I think that 1in rod MIGHT be the problem keep in mind the rod does NOT have to be brass any thing will work I know my local hardware store and the home depot has a small section with mild steel bars and angles and c channels and round rods...grab one of those if you can I usually use 3/16th The problem is ( keep in mind this is theoretical in my head but makes sense....I think LOL) but the bigger the rod the more surface area that will be in contact with the knife edge so the less surface area that there is the more focused that pressure your putting on it will be make sense? Again this is just my thought process I never tried a large rod like that.

Also how did you put on the secondary bevel and do the sharpening? the wider that angle the thicker the edge and the harder it will be to get deflection...that could be part of the problem to that's why I asked how you did the secondary bevel and sharpening did you do it by eye or did you try to do it at a certain angle? Both of these things could be the problem with not seeing deflection or it could be a combination of both....then throw in if your eyes aint that good that will effect it too...my eyes are pretty good but I have talked to makers that use a magnified glass on a stand when they do this or even those magnifying glasses/ goggles what ever you want to call them that go up and down on your head...all of this COULD be part of the problem.

The heat coloring first will fade and loose its shine and slowly start to fade away...if you ever go to knife shows a lot of the Damascus guys will heat color some of there stuff to make it look good but if you spend a minute talking to them most of them are pretty honest and they will say heat coloring is not a good way to go if your going to use the knife at all....I never heat color steel however I do use moku-ti and timascus wich is basiccly titanium Damascus now after you grind it to shape I heat color it with a torch now if I carry that knife and say the bolsters are heat colored timascus they will loose their shine very quickly the color will stay for a lil while but eventually that fades to. But once the shine wears off the color is there but still doesn't look great. From what I am told heat coloring on steel will wear off quicker than the titinum stuff I use....I do know Ed coats some of his Damascus in a clear duracoat and he says it comes out great and helps the look and durability of it....I actually just cut a couple small pieces of timascus to test I have 2 different clear cera coat one is matte one is gloss I am going to test them at some point this week and just put it in my pocket and just play with it every now and then to see how it holds up over a week or two ...I think the matte will work better as the gloss may give it a plastic look....either way heat coloring on most materials the shine comes off quick and eventually all the color wears off.
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Old 11-08-2017, 08:41 AM
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Grayshadow95 Grayshadow95 is offline
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Thanks Dave.
The handle isn't completely finished yet, I just got it to the point that it felt good in my hand so I could do the testing.

As I indicated in my previous post, the primary bevel is done using a jig to hold the blade at a very precise angle while grinding, but the secondary bevel is done by eye. I clamp the tang of the blade in my bench vise and lock it precisely horizontal. I do most of the secondary bevel with a large mill file, but after I have both sides about half done I check it with an angle gauge so I can adjust it if necessary. This blade has about a 21 - 22 degree angle. I then smooth each side of the bevel with a 6 inch very fine double cut jewelers file before heat treating, leaving a hair fine "flat" on the edge. Final sharpening it done by hand with a series of quality hones, regular stone and/or diamond. Several people have told me that I have a "talent" for sharpening knives, not sure how true that is, but I haven't found a knife yet that I can't put an edge on the blade that will shave hair. How long that edge lasts depends on the quality of the knife!

Yes, I've seen aluminum rods at the big box stores, I'll pick some up next time I'm there. But, is it necessary for me to be able to "see" the deflection for the test to work??? I wear reading glasses while doing close work, but if I do the steps correctly, just because I can't see deflection doesn't mean that it isn't there. After doing the test with the 1 inch brass rod I could see a fine shiny line around the rod where the edge had contacted it. Wouldn't this be an indication of correct contact?

Yeah, I am aware that unfortunately the coloring won't be very durable, but I wanted to get an idea of how long it would last during use before just polishing it off with 600 grit paper.
The last step I do when finishing a knife it to apply a product called Renaissance Wax. It is used by museums to protect their artifacts. It is very durable, and comes in gloss and semi-gloss. It works great on both metal and wood. I put some on this blade just to see if it would enhance the color, which it did. Like car wax, you put it on, let it dry, then buff with soft a cloth.
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  #5  
Old 11-10-2017, 08:52 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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Ok well first if you can gets a steel rod it MIGHT be better just cause aluminum is soft and might give a lil but then again so is brass so it might be ok... I do know some guys that have said they did this test by feel rather than sight...me personally I always made sure I could see that deflection....However if you sharpen the knife and check and double check that there is NO BURR on the blades edge now deflection is similar to burr so if you make sure there is absolutely no burr first then run this test and now there is what looks like a burr that would be the same as seeing the deflection but it NOT spinging back so that would say its a lil on the soft side IF you see lil chips then a lil on the hard side....but in my mind here is where the problem lies ideally what you want is the blade to deflect and spring back to its original position so if you ran this test and see no burr afterward now how do you know IF yes the knife is good and it sprang back OR I didn't put enough pressure on it for it to deflect anyway .......do you see where I am going IF you could see that deflection you would know hands down yes it deflected and yes it must have sprang back....so in your case if you saw that lil shiny line down the edge and it looked kinda like a burr AND your sure that burr was not there to start then I would say the blade is a lil on the soft side but when you do get it right and you don't see that deflection how do you know if it wasn't enough pressure or if you really did get it right on....I would sugest sharpen it again get rid of the but and get a smaller rod......I even used a small bolt once you know the long ones that only have threads on the end I cut the head and threads off of that and used that. IF you cant see the deflection with a smaller rod there has to be something else going on maybe you left that edge a lil to thick before you put the secondary bevel on or yyour angle could be a lil off from what you think and its too wide (the wider it is the more pressure it takes) or maybe you don't have the best of eyes ....when my father was alive and I first started making knives (this was when I was in my mirror polish stage I polished EVERYTHING LOL) but I would show my father lil mistakes and scratches in the mirror polish he nevr could see them I even made him use a magnifine glass and even with that he couldn't see them I realized I take my good vision for granted...OR honestly if a smaller rod doesn't work its probilly not all one thing it may be a small combination of things....I would say re test when you can get a smaller rod and let us know how you did and take it from there..... Oh if you use a smaller rod where you hold your knife to push down your nuckes may get in the way if so lay it on the corner of the table so your hands aren't in the way and you can use more pressure ((that is a super simple thing and it may be obvious to you but it took me a couple times to figure that out....ask ray my brain does not work on simple only complicated so simple answers come hardest to me LOL)
Oh by the way your correct about the renaissance wax it is very good stuff I even use it on my stainless blades when I probilly don't need it and some wood and other handle materials too it is real good stuf...I do mostly stainless but I do collaborate with another maker that he used carbon so o those blades I use baracaid spray and spray them down when I get them and every day I work on one at the end of the day it gets a heavy coat I only use that while the knives are in my shop once they are done and ready to leave I ues the Ren. wzx.....some guys substitute wd40 for the baracaid spray when its in the shop but wd40 can get messy the baracaid spray dries up pretty good even with a heavy coat but still leaves a nices coat on the steel
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Old 11-10-2017, 09:40 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Not getting any deflection could just mean the edge geometry is too thick. The reason we want to see deflection and recovery is because that is an indication that the edge is tough and resilient. We need the edge to be resilient because the edge and the primary grind above it need to be thin in order to cut and slice well. If a thin edge will demonstrate the ability to deflect and recover then it will survive hard use even though it is thin. Basically, the brass rod test tells us that we have made a well designed grind on our blades and not just a sharpened club ...


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Last edited by Ray Rogers; 11-10-2017 at 09:46 AM.
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  #7  
Old 11-10-2017, 12:50 PM
samuraistuart samuraistuart is offline
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Yep, brass rod test is a decent one, but doesn't say a whole lot. It tells us that the heat treatment and geometry of that particular blade are within it's lower (rolling) and upper (chipping) limits. Nothing more, nothing less. When working with a new steel, I find it good to use the test, just to make sure that there aren't (shouldn't be anyway) rolling/chipping issues during use.

I know some think the brass rod test involves actually cutting the brass rod, which is not the case.

I just saw an Instagram post by knifemaker "hatcherknives" where he posted a good video of this test. Start at the heel, and flex the edge all the way to the tip.
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Old 11-11-2017, 08:58 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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honestly I blame forged in fire for the mis conceptions in this test...when they did one of there "tests" where the took the blade and hammered it through a brass rod...well after that episoide aired is when I noticed people starting to this that was the "brass rod test" when its not....but hey the people actually making the show are TV producers not knifemakers! yeh I am sure the judges have some imput where 1 usually is a knife maker but when it comes down to final decisions it ends up with the producers so they want to make good tv not nessecarilly do legit tests
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  #9  
Old Yesterday, 02:39 PM
WNC Goater WNC Goater is offline
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They actually hammered a blade THROUGH the brass rod, as it cut it in two?


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  #10  
Old Yesterday, 06:19 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Yep Goater, they did. Welcome to the Hollywood world of knife making, but watch out for your daughter and/or wife.


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bevel, blade, brass, case, corrugated, cutting, damascus, diamond, edge, finish, flat, handle, heat, heat treat, knife, knife making, retention, rod, sharpening, sharpness, stone, strop, traditional, white


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