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  #16  
Old 12-08-2016, 12:58 AM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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I still can't copy the photo Jack. Please email the photo to me. No links please. Just the photo.
Thanks.
Ronnie
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  #17  
Old 12-08-2016, 09:23 AM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Ronnie send me your E-mail address in private msg. I just tried to save it myself from the posts and it worked fine. Right click on photo, then click "save as," then click "save." Worked fine. Incidentally the face recognition technology had a slightly higher percent for the Col. Vandervoot picture combo... both were around 90 percent.

Jim, twin brother and I were 12 days old when Lt. Williams was KIA. We both carried a m14 Randall in Vietnam which is why I became interested in them. I also had a small single-blade pocket knife. I could see how a swiss army knife could have been useful.

When my son deployed to Afghanistan, I offered him one of my Randalls. He declined saying everyone was carrying folders. It could well be that the weight of all the equipment they have to carry now caused a desire to reduce weight by eliminating sheath. It also could be fashion and peer determination. This younger generation.... no respect.

Regards

Since there seems to be some interest, here are some more pictures from his camera.



Above are Lt. Bud DeWeese and Lt. Victor Grabbe. DeWeese was KIA in Holland, Grabbe was KIA in Normandy. A notation in DeWeese's diary pinpoints the time-date of this picture, which helps determine when the Gavin/Vandervoot picture was taken.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...&GRid=81464548
http://www.508pir.org/deweese_diary/index.htm
https://www.508pir.org/taps/graves/g/grabbe_v.htm



Above picture taken on hill 30. Notice the parachute in the background. I have been unable to use that event to establish the time-date of this photo.. but it is certainly after June 12 because of the commo wire spool.



The above picture is a shot of Pont l'Abby (Etienville) on June 15, 1944 from Lt. Williams camera, and a modern view taken about 10 years ago. The box structure on top of the building during the battle was a German AA emplacement.

Last edited by Jacknola; 12-08-2016 at 03:49 PM.
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  #18  
Old 12-08-2016, 07:03 PM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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When the "alleged" Gavin and Vandervoort picture was made. The face matching thing you refer to says a 90% chance it's Van but.....it's 100% wrong.
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  #19  
Old 12-08-2016, 07:07 PM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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PM sent Jack.
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  #20  
Old 12-08-2016, 07:08 PM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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Btw Jack I know how to down load a photo. For some reason on my IPad it simply will not work.
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  #21  
Old 12-08-2016, 09:44 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Ronnie. It is not "alleged." It has been vetted on historical boards and by several known authorities. Please note that I have posted some of the overlays, and historical context in this line. I have made a case. You have not.

If you cannot see those facial comparisons are unmistakable, or at least remarkably similar, I would wonder ... are you trying not to? Other historians familiar with General Gavin and the D-Day jump have given a general thumbs up to this picture. While the ID is not 100 percent certain, it is certain enough to call with some confidence especially given the historical context and testimony of 508 troopers at the scene. Are you going to say that other picture is not Lt. DeWeese and Lt. Grabbe?

If you would post the reasons for your skepticism and some pictures or historical information to back up your position, I would consider it. Whatever ... you are welcome to your opinion. I'm not here to convince you and really don't need to. With due respect, you can download your own copies of my father's pictures.

Last edited by Jacknola; 12-08-2016 at 09:53 PM.
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  #22  
Old 12-08-2016, 11:20 PM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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Jack I'm really sorry I got you upset. I didn't want to. As for me not trying to recognize them, that is exactly how I felt about you. Frankly I cannot see why you cannot see that these men are not Gavin and Vandervoort. However you challenged me to produce so here I go.....keep in mind I am doing all I can to get this picture to a family member to ID for me. I also appreciate your credentials that you set forth above but I too have credentials as a 505 Historian. I have made many public speaking appearances with regards to the 05's operation at Ste. Mere Eglise. I too have walked in the footsteps of my 1st cousin WW Wray in Normandy. If you have any of the Airborne books written since the 1950's you will find most will cover the Wray exploits in Normandy. Gavin wrote about him Ambrose wrote about him in at least two books. I too have interviewed numerous 505 troopers and became close personal friends to many of them. I was called to testify before a Congressional Committee on behalf of the 505th PIR along with my good friend Lt. Gen. Jack Norton in an attempt to have the Wray DSC changed to the CMH. Gen Jack, as I called him died before we went to Washington and there simply wasn't anyone left to take over the committee to have the award upgraded. It remains in limbo to this day. Now as for the picture if you will notice that Van's eyes are set wide on his face. Notice the soldier you claim to be Van....his eyes are much closer together. Notice the marks from his nose to his mouth. Many of us have those marks and many of us don't. Van does....your man doesn't notice the difference in each chin. Clearly different shapes. As for Gavin...I see basically the same differences. I agree that his face is generally shaped like Gavin's but your soldier looks heavier than Gavin to me. And I know this isn't much but Gavin rarely ever wore a net. He did so in Sicily and I believe I have seen one that I think is Normandy but I'm not sure. Your fellow has a net and scrim. I have never seen Gavin with scrim. Gavin's helmet at Normandy was without a net, for the most part, with his star clearly visible. There is no star visible on your man. Same for Vandervoort. He did wear a net but his insignia was on the outside of his net. Your soldier has no insignia. Did they decide to remove their insignia on the day they visited the 508 and then suddenly put it back on? I think not. At any rate I'm doing my best to get your photo to my people for identification.
I talked to my friend Kelli Vandervoort tonight to let her know I would be sending the photo to her. Unfortunately I cannot download the picture. I have attempted to contact Barbara Fontleroy a member of the 505th Association, as I am. Do you know her? She's Gavin's daughter. Certainly she will know if it is Gavin or not. If it is I will eat my words and man up and apologize. Btw Kelli told me tonight when I explained to her what was going on said to me..."if anybody can recognize granddaddy, you can." Made me feel kinda good.

Last edited by jeepster; 12-08-2016 at 11:27 PM.
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  #23  
Old 12-12-2016, 12:44 AM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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The last thing I wanted to do here was to get into an online argument with Jack. I have had a lot of respect for Jack over the years and have even sold him a knife. I actually thought that once I explained to Jack that I thought that the photo was not of Gavin and Vandervoort, that he would accept that. I did receive a copy of the photo from another forum member here and shortly after that I received a copy from Jack. I forwarded a copy to a very good friend who I will not use her married name for privacy reasons. Her maiden name is Kelli Vandervoort. She is Colonel Vandervoort's granddaughter.
I also received some advice regarding this matter. Drop it. After much thought I think it is good advice. However I will say this. Regardless of the outcome of what Kelli said i.e. Is it Van and Gavin or not Van and Gavin. What ever the outcome it will not deminish what Lt. Williams did for his country. He paid the ultimate price for all of us. RIP Lt. Williams. I said I would be a man and step forward and admit if I was wrong and apologize to Jack so if any of you want to know if I am right or wrong feel free to PM me. That of course goes for you too Jack. Also if Jack wants me to publish my findings here I will do as he wishes. Thanks to all and I'm sorry if I have offended any of you.
Ronnie
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  #24  
Old 12-12-2016, 07:00 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Jack I don't remember my M14 bayonet as being a Randall, in fact I don't remember who made it at all. Do you happen to know how many Randall bayonets were made for the M14? Funny I can't remember who made mine, but it was called the M6 bayonet if I'm not mistaken. I was there in 1970 525th MIG 3d Bn. C Det. btw.

Another edged weapon I remember was this one guy had a wakizashi or whatever you call that shorter Katana. He picked it up in Japan and carried it on his back in a nice sheath of I think lemonwood. It held up better than a machete that's for sure. It was great on cutting through the bush and hmm, other things. Had a nice Hamon on it too which is why it stands out in my memory, first one I ever saw.

That inset of General Gavin in your father's photo sure does look like him. Judging by the age of Gavin in the photo and the look on his face, he may have taken off his insignia as they may have been in the thick of it and the stars would make him a target, but that looks like him quite a bit. Don't want to get into the middle of a discussion, but one thing is for sure the man in the picture is too old to be a regular foot soldier, though I know they took them as old as, what was it, 40 or so? I'm with you on Gavin being there, not so sure on the Colonel, but that is Gavin I'm sure. Same nose, lips and chin, distance to ears. I'm sure that's Gavin, he may have just lost his helmet. Well that's my 2 cents, have a Merry Christmas Jack and everyone.
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  #25  
Old 12-12-2016, 07:30 PM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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Jim! Randall never made a bayonet. For the M14 or otherwise. Hope this helps.
Ronnie
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  #26  
Old 12-12-2016, 08:46 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Thanks Ron, I reread what he said, he meant model 14 Randall. lol
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  #27  
Old 12-12-2016, 09:50 PM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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Roger that.
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