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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 09-02-2015, 08:13 PM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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First Two knives

So here is a slide show of my first 2 knives, i want you guys to be totally honest and tell me what you think!

http://s613.photobucket.com/user/Vance_Hanna/slideshow/
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  #2  
Old 09-02-2015, 08:32 PM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
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Take 'em out and start cutting. Have a good knife to compare yours too. You should be your most critical judge.
But my 2 cents, push your grind thinner. The blade can be shaving sharp but wont cut because it's having to wedge through the material.
Have you heat treated them yet?
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  #3  
Old 09-02-2015, 08:34 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Well, first of all, I can't see the slide show, all I can see are the thumbnails so a couple of pictures posted here would be much more useful.

From the thumbnails though it looks to me like you profiled your blade and then sharpened the edge without grinding any bevels. If that is the case you would have a terrible cutting geometry - more like an axe than a knife. The best way to know about this for sure is to finish the knife and use it a lot, nothing teaches like a blistered hand.

Also, looks like you have an extension below the edge of the blade at the ricasso. This complicates both cutting and sharpening.

Generally speaking, a good first effort and very typical of the type of design elements we often see on beginner's blade's so nothing to be ashamed of nor overly proud of. What you should do now is finish one of those knives and then test it very hard. Try slicing cardboard with it and maybe chopping through a 2x4. If the blade is too small for chopping then whittle your way through a soft pine 2x4. By the time you're half way through you'll know what works and what doesn't ...


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  #4  
Old 09-02-2015, 09:24 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Forget about the false edges for right now until you see how the bevels go together. Then take the primary bevels all the way to the spine before grinding in the secondary bevels at the edge. After you get a basic blade design down then you can start adding in false edges at the spine.

Doug


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  #5  
Old 09-02-2015, 11:36 PM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Lester View Post
Forget about the false edges for right now until you see how the bevels go together. Then take the primary bevels all the way to the spine before grinding in the secondary bevels at the edge. After you get a basic blade design down then you can start adding in false edges at the spine.

Doug
I have just been clamping the knife to my jig that is set to the angle i want and grinding away.....
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  #6  
Old 09-03-2015, 08:51 AM
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Hunter10139 Hunter10139 is offline
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I second everything Ray said, especially the part about your grinds. I think you'll find that that edge geometry is detrimental to cutting asks. Since you're using a jig I recommend you change the angle and bring the grinds way up the blade.

On a second note, are these heat treated and if so, how?


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  #7  
Old 09-03-2015, 11:40 AM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Originally Posted by Hunter10139 View Post
I second everything Ray said, especially the part about your grinds. I think you'll find that that edge geometry is detrimental to cutting asks. Since you're using a jig I recommend you change the angle and bring the grinds way up the blade.

On a second note, are these heat treated and if so, how?
These are made with "practice steel", Old lawn mower blades and old saw blades, the only thing i know is some of the saw blades are chrome-Nickel-Moly steel of some type. Right now i cant afford to buy steel and i would prefer to make most of my mistakes on scrap metal that way when i do order good steel i will have LESS risk of ruining the knife and a better chance of getting a good knife.



What angle should i be at to bring the grind way up the knife? I have not played around with different angles just yet so im flying kinda blind right now.

Last edited by VanceHanna; 09-03-2015 at 11:44 AM.
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  #8  
Old 09-03-2015, 01:02 PM
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Hunter10139 Hunter10139 is offline
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So does that mean you are just practicing grinding an you aren't going you make these users? If so thats fine, but you may be able to heat treat the lawnmower blades so that they are mildly serviceable with a torch/propane or charcoal forge. Granted, you won't get the most out of your steel but you may get something useable.

Honestly man, I don't think most knifemakers have a set angle. We start out with the bevels at a similar angle to what you have and then when we get it pretty uniformly ground to that angle we adjust the angle again to raise our grind lines. Then, we grind at this angle until we have a pretty uniform bevel at this second angle and then adjust the angle again to bring the grind lines even further up. I'm not the best at explaining this in text form. The following link is a video on youtube that shows how one knifemaker grinds his bevels using a jig. I highly recommend you check it out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6-1EJuJj_E


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  #9  
Old 09-03-2015, 01:21 PM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Originally Posted by Hunter10139 View Post
So does that mean you are just practicing grinding an you aren't going you make these users? If so thats fine, but you may be able to heat treat the lawnmower blades so that they are mildly serviceable with a torch/propane or charcoal forge. Granted, you won't get the most out of your steel but you may get something useable.

Honestly man, I don't think most knifemakers have a set angle. We start out with the bevels at a similar angle to what you have and then when we get it pretty uniformly ground to that angle we adjust the angle again to raise our grind lines. Then, we grind at this angle until we have a pretty uniform bevel at this second angle and then adjust the angle again to bring the grind lines even further up. I'm not the best at explaining this in text form. The following link is a video on youtube that shows how one knifemaker grinds his bevels using a jig. I highly recommend you check it out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6-1EJuJj_E
Ya that is Trollsky, I have watched a bunch of his videos, i honestly dont know what i am doing wrong, Example, I have one drop point from a saw blade and no matter what i do i can not get it shaving sharp. I have the Angle set for 10 degrees, which is typical for a straight razor, so i am told, yet i can not get it sharp. I went all the way from 24grit up to 220grit and it will cut but not paper and not shaving sharp.
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  #10  
Old 09-03-2015, 03:26 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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First problem could be that the steel in question isn't capable of taking a 'scary sharp' edge. True, a sharpening master could probably get an edge like that on most any steel but for most of us a properly hardened piece of steel helps a lot.

Second, you're doing all your sharpening on belts and stopping at 220. Not likely to get scary sharp that way. For that, some hand sharpening will be required after the initial edge is set with the belts.

Finally, no way in heck you'll get scary sharp with that type of edge geometry. You might manage a shaving edge that is really a sharp scraping edge but that's about it. Do any of the good knives in your kitchen have that kind of geometry? Any of your hunting knives or skinners? Getting high end performance out of a blade is a total package, you can't just do some parts that are convenient and ignore the others. At a minimum you'll need a good grind on a piece of steel of the correct thickness followed by a properly prepared edge. That much you can do on scrap steel. To really get what you want you'll need to do those things on a good blade steel with the right heat treatment.....


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  #11  
Old 09-03-2015, 03:57 PM
damon damon is offline
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scary sharp might also be a relative term..... most of my knives (EDC use and such) have a bit sturdier angle on the cutting edge. they will still go through 10oz veg.tanned leather just as effortlessly as paper.

however..... I have a nice connection with local sushi place that I do the sharpening for..... ill use the grinder up to 1200 grit, then hand finish with black Arkansas stone and polish with leather charged with 1/2 micron diamond spray..... end result... they slice plastic wrap like most knives do paper.
THAT is "scary sharp". that is also not the typical edge geometry for general purpose use. those are Japanese blades with a fine angle ment for slicing through fish with the ease of a jedi master. I spend a good amount of time on each of those to make as perfect as I can..... and my efforts are greatly appreciated and rewarded.
I highly recommend developing such a relation with local chefs (sushi or other)
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  #12  
Old 09-03-2015, 06:39 PM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Originally Posted by damon View Post
scary sharp might also be a relative term..... most of my knives (EDC use and such) have a bit sturdier angle on the cutting edge. they will still go through 10oz veg.tanned leather just as effortlessly as paper.

however..... I have a nice connection with local sushi place that I do the sharpening for..... ill use the grinder up to 1200 grit, then hand finish with black Arkansas stone and polish with leather charged with 1/2 micron diamond spray..... end result... they slice plastic wrap like most knives do paper.
THAT is "scary sharp". that is also not the typical edge geometry for general purpose use. those are Japanese blades with a fine angle ment for slicing through fish with the ease of a jedi master. I spend a good amount of time on each of those to make as perfect as I can..... and my efforts are greatly appreciated and rewarded.
I highly recommend developing such a relation with local chefs (sushi or other)

If I ever get good enough at sharpening ill keep that in mind!
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  #13  
Old 09-03-2015, 06:42 PM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
First problem could be that the steel in question isn't capable of taking a 'scary sharp' edge. True, a sharpening master could probably get an edge like that on most any steel but for most of us a properly hardened piece of steel helps a lot.

Second, you're doing all your sharpening on belts and stopping at 220. Not likely to get scary sharp that way. For that, some hand sharpening will be required after the initial edge is set with the belts.

Finally, no way in heck you'll get scary sharp with that type of edge geometry. You might manage a shaving edge that is really a sharp scraping edge but that's about it. Do any of the good knives in your kitchen have that kind of geometry? Any of your hunting knives or skinners? Getting high end performance out of a blade is a total package, you can't just do some parts that are convenient and ignore the others. At a minimum you'll need a good grind on a piece of steel of the correct thickness followed by a properly prepared edge. That much you can do on scrap steel. To really get what you want you'll need to do those things on a good blade steel with the right heat treatment.....

Ok I am going to break down and order some real steel to work with, So let me ask this, Out of all the steels out there, which should i order? Here is what i want, I want it to be durable(tough and rugged), hold an edge well and be able to hold a wickedly sharp edge for a long time.

I would also like to not have to sell my soul to afford it lol
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  #14  
Old 09-03-2015, 07:41 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Any steel we use for knives can do what you are asking, some better than others but none would disappoint. But, only the heat treatment makes that possible - good HT and you can get that kind of performance if you do your part by creating good blade geometry and if you sharpen wisely according to the intended use for that knife.

So, are you doing the HT or sending it out? If you are doing it then buy some 1080 or 1084 (whichever you can find at the moment). If you plan to send it out then 440C is probably the least expensive to buy and cheapest to have treated. In either case, buy 1/8" stock or 3/16" at the most and no more than 1.25" wide. Then, do a full flat grind on your blade - that means make the cross section of the blade look like a V from edge to spine. That would be a good start on getting where you want to go ...


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Old 09-03-2015, 08:19 PM
VanceHanna VanceHanna is offline
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Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
Any steel we use for knives can do what you are asking, some better than others but none would disappoint. But, only the heat treatment makes that possible - good HT and you can get that kind of performance if you do your part by creating good blade geometry and if you sharpen wisely according to the intended use for that knife.

So, are you doing the HT or sending it out? If you are doing it then buy some 1080 or 1084 (whichever you can find at the moment). If you plan to send it out then 440C is probably the least expensive to buy and cheapest to have treated. In either case, buy 1/8" stock or 3/16" at the most and no more than 1.25" wide. Then, do a full flat grind on your blade - that means make the cross section of the blade look like a V from edge to spine. That would be a good start on getting where you want to go ...

So far cost wise it looks like a choice between O-1 Tool Steel,5160 High Carbon, 15N20 and A-2 Tool Steel all are cheaper than the 440c or the 1095 which is what the site im ordering from has, So out of those, for edge retention, tough and be able to be wickedly scary sharp which would you pick?
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