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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 01-02-2005, 10:39 AM
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DanCrabtree DanCrabtree is offline
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Damascus Newbie Questions

After completing a few damascus knives Ive had a few problems. Im using mostly chainsaw blades and motorcycle chains.

1. What is the best way to hold the chains together and keep them from moving around.

2. What should I sand to before etching?

3. Using ferric cloride acid how long should I etch for? I want a dark contrast in the pattern.

4. What finishing should I do on the blade after the etch? Ive been taking it strait out of the etch and whipping it off and buffing with an emery. If i try to sand on my etch it is taken off.

5. What is nickel used for in damascus? And how do you use it in a coal forge?

6. What ways are there to prevent the blade from futher etching from use, such as cutting onions or other things with acidity to then?

Thats all the questions I have for now hope its not too many, thanks in advance.


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Old 01-02-2005, 10:53 AM
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chrisinbeav chrisinbeav is offline
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Well I'm definately not a damascus expert, but I will give what little I know.

From what I've seen in pictures, to keep your chains together use wire, like from a coat hanger and maybe a couple tack welds.

Before etching sand everything down to about a 600-800 grit then clean the crap out of it.

I've never used ferric cloride but from what I've seen on other posts here I think 10-20 minutes is good. Me personally I use Vinegar, it still works...just real slow!

After etching the only thing I've done is lightly rub with steel wool just to get the loose material off, then coat with a good blade oil.

From what I understand, straight nickel isn't used in the forging process. It is a steel that is high in nickel. That way the is a higher contrast between the different layers. Otherwise you would end up with something like Japanese Hanwai, you can still see the layers just no bright contrast. As far as using it in a coal forge... sorry can't help you there...

As far as blade maintenance, I think it's pretty similar to your non-stainless steels. After usage, wash it off, dry it, and then put a light coat of vegatable oil on the blade. Veg oil may not be what you would normally use, but if you are planning on using it in the kitchen why not use something from the kitchen to take care of it?

I hope these were remotely helpful. Please remember I am not a damascus master. If any of what I have said here is incorrect, somebody please correct me!

Chris Nilluka
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Old 01-02-2005, 12:56 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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I you want a higher contrast in your pattern you need to use steels etch at significantly different rates. You said you are using chains but didn't mention anything else. Is that it? If so, the contrast will probably be low.

Also, you say you etch and then buff right away. The black deposits need time to 'set'. Wash it off, nuetralize the etchant, dry it, and let it set for at least a few minutes. Exactly how long will depend on the types of steel and the concentraton of etchant and the length of time for the etch. You will have to experiment to find the right combo.

Most people like a slower etch because they get better contrast and less pitting. Ferric chloride at 50% or 25% with distilled water is a good place to start.

Do all your finishing before the etch. After the etch, a light polish like Flitz or Semi-Chrome can be done (give the damascus time to 'set' first), or light sanding by hand with about 1000 grit paper on a hard block can be good sometimes, or nothing at all. Generally, you don't want to buff or use loose sand paper because it will get into the low spots and remove the black deposits.

Nickle 200 can be used in damascus patterns to create high contrast areas but some blade smiths do not favor including anything in a knife blade that is not blade grade material. If you do decide to include nickle in your mix make sure that none is allowed on the edge of the blade.......


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Last edited by Ray Rogers; 01-02-2005 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 01-02-2005, 03:45 PM
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Dan:
Chainsaw can be a fun and rewarding media to use in damascus, and depending on the chain, Ive seen 3 to five diffrent "colors" in the steel. My favorite is "Oregon" brand, they seem to have the most contrat in my opinion. I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination, but here is what works for me.

I cut my chains into 8" lengths then when I have a suitable size, I use 3 hose clamps tp hold them togather. I then weld the ends solid, and attatch a handle.

I put the billet in the forge, and once at heat flux heavily. Once the billet is at welding heat, I use the "Max Burnet Fling Method" and fling it twords the ground, this will remove any excess "gunk" in the billet. Depending on how it looks, I may do this twice. (beware! this will rain a shower of molten flux and gunk!! do this in a fire safe area!!! And wear Protective equipment!!)

Bring the heavily fluxed billet back to welding heat and use the step down on your anvil to gently tap the billet togather. This may take several heats, but flux heavily and keep it at a good welding heat. Once the bar feels solid, I start to hammer the billet square. Once it is square, I will then hammer in the corners just to be sure. All these steps are done at a welding heat. If you are using a coal forge, you may want to start with a shorter but fatter bundle, and work it in sections, The key is to make it solid and remove all the voids so that EVERYTHING welds solidly. Again do each step at a welding heat.

Once I have the billet fully welded, I will forge my blade to shape, then anneal it over nite in powdered lime. I then grind the blade to a 400 grit finish and do a quick etch in 4 parts distilled water and one part ferric chloride being sure that the blade is clean ( I use acetone) nothing long here, just a few moments to see what the pattern will look like.
Then I will heat treat the blade. A note here, if you edge quench the blade, it will show a definate line. This is fine if thats what you like, but for me it seems to detract from the pattern. I will normalize 3 times, allowing the blade to cool in still air, then take the blade to non magnetic and quench in 120 deg mineral oil. as soon as the blade has cooled to where it can be handled, I take back to non magnetic and quench again, then lightly grind off the scale so I can see the color of the steel, and temper at 425 deg for 2 hours twice allowing the blade to cool to room temperature between each temper.

Once the blade is tempered, I will go back to a 400 grit belt and clean things up, I then hand sand to a 600 grit finish or higher, sometimes 100 grit. Some folks think this is a waste, but it does make a visible diffrence in my opinion. While the blade is etching, it will form a black film, this is oxides from the ferric eating the steel, I rub down with 1000 grit paper every 4 min or so, and rinse in clean water, again being sure I dont touch the blade with my fingers, ( I wear surgons gloves) I etch on the average 10 to 15 minutes, but really judge the time by the look Im getting. I then scrub the blade with a tooth brush and baking soda to neutrilze the acid, then rinse in hot tap water and dry. I then coat the blade with WD 40 and let it set a few hours. this seems to "set" the finish. clean it up and mount the fittings and handle.

Will acidic veggies and fruits effect it? Yes but to what degree I cannot tell you, a quick wipe with mineral oil or olive oil will help.

Things are easier in a gas forge, but I learned to weld chainsaw from my friend and mentor Max Burnette. He uses coal and does a splendid job of it, just remember to flux heavily on the initial welds, and be sure to work it at a welding heat.

Hope this helps,

God Bless
Mike


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Last edited by DiamondG Knives; 01-02-2005 at 03:50 PM.
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  #5  
Old 01-04-2005, 02:09 AM
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Dan:
Here is a blade I forged out tonight and did the initial rough grind. I ground it to 220 grit then went to draw filing becuase I was having trouble keeping things flat, after draw filing, a quick rub down with 320 grit then an etch. You can see the scratches plainly, this is why I reccomend takingh it to at least a hand rubbed 600 grit finish. This blade is not hardened yet, so the contrast will be bolder when it is hardened.

This blade was made as described above, then forged into a flat bar 3/4 thick x 2" wide x 8" long, then ladder patterned. I did this by marking lines every 1/2 to 3/4 inches ( I dont remember now wich I did) then cut the lines in with a side grinder. Do the same on the other side, but over lap your cuts so they are between the ones from the other side, I cut roughly 1/4 deep. Then hammer flat again. This will distort your pattern with lines running across the blade. I wasnt to crazy about the look with chainsaw though.

Hope this helps. Feel free to email me if you have any questions.

http://knifenetwork.com/ppost/showph...cat=500&page=1

http://knifenetwork.com/ppost/showph...cat=500&page=1


God Bless
Mike


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Last edited by DiamondG Knives; 01-04-2005 at 02:53 AM.
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