Blade Material

OK guys, I 'm new so be gentle. I ned suggestions on material for my first knife project. I was thinking about
5160 High Carbon spring steel. I will be doing most of the work by hand and not with power tools.
Good, Bad??? What things go into determining what type of material to use? Thanks, Dennis

Dennis,
5160 makes a good tough knife. There's a few things I better mention up front here though.

5160 is abundant, but is usually found in thicknesses of 1/4" or more. That's pretty thick to start with if you aren't forging the blades. I bet you can obtain thinner stock, but I don't where to tell you to look at the moment.

Another thing that comes to mind is that 5160 doesn't come precision ground, so it has a thick skin from the mill instead of a clean shiny surface.

Another new member, Gary Mills, will be starting out with truck leaf springs because he has a ready supply. He's going to have to deal with the thick stuff, but it's a great learning experience.

But if you are going to be buying your stock from a supplier, you might want to start with something like precision ground O1 tool steel since you'll be using hand tools. Precision ground O1 comes in a variety of thicknesses and is clean and shiny when you get it. O1 also has a relatively simple heat treat.

Terry, the blade I have in mind won't have a shiny finish. It will be parkerized,or with some similar finish, or
bead blasted for a satin finish. Shiney is not the picture in my minds eye at this time. I'm gonna try
to go slowly, and not to stess myself over the finish just yet. I can however do smooth and shiney, I used
to put togather some jewlery (in a former life),so metal working is nothing really new, but working in larger sizes
shapes, and with material that can withstand higher heat, etc will be something I'll have to get used to. My wife says
go for it, that my creative side hasn't been around for a while. " Honey about those tools, and material, and yeah I am really gonna need a forge....." Wonder if she really knows????
Dennis

I would still agree with Terry.

The presision ground will save you a lot of elbow grease in getting down to your final knife shape. Buy the thickness you want and it will be flat and true. I think Terry was saying that it would be shiney because the scale would be gone, not for polishing reasons. Scale is real hard to get off when you are using files or sandpaper (and even grinders). You can avoid the problem by getting presision ground. You will start with a piece of steel that will require LESS work to get to a finished knife. Given the fact you have only hand tools, this is a HUGE bonus. When you are done you can finish the blade any way you want to get the effect you are looking for.

5160 from what Ed Cafery said, comes in a minimum of 1/4" so unless you forge it, you will be sanding forever to get it to a usable thickness. I suggest you save yourself the time and trouble and get the O1.

Please understand that the people answering your post have been there and have wasted a lot of time, energy and money making trial and error mistakes. We are trying to save you from doing the same. If you use 5160 and file and grind on it for a long time just to get down to a usable thickness you may get discouraged and decide it is not worth the effort.

Also, the O1 will be easier for you to heat treat than the 5160 will be until you get more knifemaking tools available to you.

Give it a thought, then go for it. Whatever you decide to do, we will be available to back you up.

That was an excellent reply Bob. You hit the nail right on the head. When I'm talking to folks just starting out I don't always use a lot of terms used by seasoned knifemakers because the beginner might not know what I'm talking about.

The "thick skin" I referred to is the tough hard mill scale. I was trying to give you a visible representation that there was going to be a lot of sweat and sandpaper involved just to get it into a useable state.

Also, when I used the word shiny in reference to the precision ground stock, I didn't mean "polished", just "clean" and free of mill scale. And as Bob mentioned, the precision ground will also be perfectly flat.

I got a good laugh when Bob mentioned that we've wasted a lot of time, energy and money making trial and error mistakes. He is so right. I was thinking, "Yeah boy, Bob's been there too!"

That's what makes things like these forums so great. You can learn from our mistakes.

These guys are right, when I started, i used files and it is a LOT of work, now I forge which is still a fair amount of work except that i forge the blade to almost finished dimensions so there isn`t much grinding! when I make damascus I get this scale on the steel...I think every one does and between stacking layers you have to grind off the scale and believe me I would not want to do that with a file! it`s hard enough with a grinder! + I love O-1 toolsteel, easy to heat treat, comes in any thickness imaginable and is a darn good steel to start with and to continue using!.....just trying to help another fellow maker get started easier than I did!...didn`t have the CKD back then

Dennis,

Let me tell you a brief story that demonstrates what I was talking about in the work and waste part of learning. Terry better sit down and not eat or drink anything until after reading this (he may get rootbeer through his nose). I wanted to make a knife in the VERY early stages of my knifemaking and used scraps I got from friends. I wanted to try to make a fillet knife. Now, if you look at a fillet knife you will see that htey are pretty thin. Well, when I went looking for a piece of steel to make it out of all I had was a piece of leaf spring. This is before I got into forging or had a grinder. I filed and filed and filed and filed (times 1000) trying to get this thick hunk of steel thin enough enough to make a fillet knife. I had to FILE over half of the thickness away. It took me almost three weeks to get that piece of steel thin enough. Then, I had to try to get it FLAT. I filed and filed and filed (times 100) with a fine file. I never seemed to be able to get it flat. Then I decided to paint it so I could see where I needed to file so I could speed things up. This worked and I finally got it flat, ON ONE SIDE. So, I flipped it over and filed and filed and filed (times 100), painted and filed some more. FINALLY IT WAS FLAT ON BOTH SIDES. I lifted it up and looked down the edge to see if it was straight, is was, but it was almost paper thin. WAY to thin for ANY knife. I might have been able to make some razor blades out of it but was KINDA upset at the time. I threw it away and ordered some steel from Jantz supply.

Sometimes it is difficult to spend the money (not saying you can't afford to) on stuff when you are starting out. I had a hard time spending $10 on a piece of steel back then, I just did not have it. I think about all of the work I did on that steel and at $1.00 per hour that stuff cost me about $80 and several weekends and I never got a knife out of it.
Also don't take what one knifemaker says as gospel either. Just because we recommend O1 does not mean that O1 should be your steel of choice forever. Check out all of the posts here, read what you can and make your own decisions. You will hear that a lot here and I kinda got upset at first when I asked a question and was told to "Experiment" on my own. I thought that was a copout answer. I now know that the people giving that answer were trying to give advise but not give the impression that their way was the ONLY way. You really do have to experiment but we will try to help you avoid the unnessary work involved in your experimentation.

As for your first post, 5160 is a GREAT steel but not for someone with limited tools.

If you wanted to make a knife that was 1/4" thick like a big bowie, it would be fine.
If you had a forge, it would be fine.
If you had a grinder, it would be fine.
If you lived next to Terry, it would be GREAT.

Take care.

Guys, thanks for the replys. I do have some tools, a bench grinder, a dremel, a really nice scroll saw that I
just bought ($169 dollar retail, I got for $59, new in the box, from a store going out of business). So it's not
like I am gonna start trying to do this with sticks and rocks. I also have some ready cash for some tools, (shhhhh, don't tell the wife). So what do I need??

I can get a similar deal on a small band saw. How about a combo vertical belt sander/disc sander?
Is a Craftsman OK, or is a there something special needed for knife work
.
I plan on making a small forge too. I do however think that I've got a lot of work to do before I even start on a knife.

How about some suggested books or reading on beginning knife craft?

Sorry about being so long winded, but hey, you guys offered!!!!!

OK, get ready.

Here is some useful information. Probably more information than you can digest over a few months.

If I were to start out today, knowing what I know now, I would do the following:

Look for a LOCAL blacksmithing club. You can probably go to a few of their meetings without joining but the sign-up fee is usually cheap. These people usually have their meetings at someone's shop and put on demonstrations. This is really the BEST place to learn next to being invited to a BLADESMITHS shop. These people are VERY willing to teach you how to do things. They are not knifemakers (usually) but they do know steel and how to move it around.

I learned about forging from blacksmiths and about heat treating from a heat treating place that did my early knives. These people will teach you a lot. Some of the suppliers like Jantz will give you heat treating information in their catalogs but I would trust the CKD when that time comes. When you are ready to heat treat something, come back and we will assist.

I would get the following tools in this order:

First set of tools -
Safety glasses
Respirator.
Small Drill press.
8" grinder (remove wheels and put buffing wheels on it).
Files of all sizes and shapes. You can't have too many files. Use golf balls for the handles, just drill a hole and bang it on.
A solid vise.
Some method of marking your knives with your name. At stamp, electro-etch or even a vibrating tool.
Sandpaper of all grits down to about 1500 to 2000.

This will get you through the creation of knives by filing the knife to shape.


Second set of tools -
Metal cutting band saw
Belt grinder


Now you're making knives.

OK, here is where you need to decide how serious you will be. If you plan on making knives for a long time (not just 10 or 12 and give it up).

A good band saw is 500-$1000 bucks
A belt grinder is $1500 approximately.
A forge is cheap but a lot of work to make (mine was about $50) , or expensive if bought.
An anvil is about $1.50 to $3.00 per pound and you will want at least 100# if your a moose like me.
You can make a grinder with some effort and planning, there is help on the tooltime with Geno Osborn forum.


For the REAL SERIOUS -
Hydraulic press, speed up making damascus
surface grinder, gets stuff flat
anodizer coloring titamium
heat treat oven, or use your forge if you have one, some have both
tempering oven (use the one in the house),
cryogenic treatment station, part of the heat treating process.
acid etching station, for etching damascus
gold plating station, if you want to get fancy
a bluing station, if you think you would want to blue your stuff
mini metal lathe, for making parts
milling machine, to do the stuff I can't do
electroetching station, for putting on your mark
photo transfer station, to make your own stencils

Lots of stuff to learn.

Browse through this stuff and you will see that this can get complicated if you let it. You can make knives simply and functional or very artsy and still functional. I would do stock removal (grinding your own blades from flat stock), then to forging, then to making damascus, then to pattern welded damascus (where you control the designs in the steel, real cool).

Just follow the links below and you will find a LOT of information.

Feel free to ask questions, call or e-mail.

Bob

The first two books are great.

r1.us.rmi.yahoo.com/rmi/h...ake+knives

There is probably no place to get more information and tips than from this guy. He passed away a while back but his family kept the page up in his memory and to satisfy all of the requests to do so. Check out EVERY part of this page, there is not enough time in your working life for you to learn everything by trial and error.
www.engnath.com

If you want to pound steel, here is a page about gas fired forges. The web page by Ron Reil is full of great information. I recommend a mini mongo burner. www.webpak.net/~rreil/design.html

This is the link to how to build the freon tank forge. This is similar to what I made but mine is bigger and more heavy duty (I also have a small one). This would get you going for over a year of regular use before you had to rebuild it or make a new one. www.webpak.net/~rreil/minifor.htm

This place sells everything. It is like Grainger but has a lot more stuff. It is great for tools and screws, etc.... Order their catalog, it is free and HUGE. I suggest calling them to order and ask for the book on CD also. If you order through the web it may not show up (mine didn't). Not really a knife store but WAY COOL. www.mscdirect.com/

This is a gunsmithing place. There are some parts you can get from here. If you call them and tell them you are a knifemaker, they will consider you a dealer and you will get discount pricing. Get their book and ask them for a dealer account. They will explain how to determine your discount by sending you a paper with the book.
www.brownells.com/Index.html

This guy can make #### near anything. You may be able to get him to make it cheaper than ordering it from a knife supply store. www.geocities.com/beaumon...price.html

This is a list of stuff and the type of steel it is made from. Great for starting out blacksmithing. I buy new steels to guarantee what I am getting.
www.geocities.com/beaumon...price.html

Knifemaking supplies and tools.
www.riversidemachine.net/...tCat0.ivnu

Knifemaking supplies and tools.
If you just ask for a catalog, they will charge you. If they think you will really become a customer they will give you the catalog, especially if you order something. This is true with just about all companies.
www.jantzsupply.com/

These people have a good variety and their prices are pretty good. You can download their catalog or call and get one.
www.knifeandgun.com/

These people have a good variety of supplies. They also offer heat treating if you decide to make some stainless stuff.
www.texasknife.com/

This is also a great place for supplies.
www.kovalknives.com/

cool, thanks
No info at all at www.engnath.com!!!
is the url correct???

Not sure what happened at www.engnath.com

Looks like they changed something and have the site off line. Keep trying it and hopefully someone else here can shed some light on what happened. Hope the rest of the stuff can help you out.

More very good books for beginners and pros...

Step-by-Step Knifemaking -- You Can Do It
by David Boye
Published by Rodale Press

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Custom Knifemaking -- 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
by Tim McCreight
Published by Stackpole Books

---------------------------

The Wonder of Knifemaking
by Wayne Goddard
From the publishers of Blade Magazine

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Wayne Goddard's $50 Knife Shop
by Wayne Goddard

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The Hand Forged Knife
by Karl Schroen
Published by Knife World Publications