newbie questions

[bjmac]

Being a self-proclaimed newbie, I have a couple of questions:
I have no forge or kiln so how do I go about heat treatment?
I have no big grinder (only a basic 2 wheel Delta), will this work?
How did the "old-timers" handle these tasks?
In regard to these other questions, what kind of steel should I use?
I do have extensive experience working with hand tools as I build muzzle loading rifles, so the files and other tools are at hand (and so is the sweat!)
Thanks in advance
BJ

[cnccutter]

Good Morning BJ.

I don't know if I count as an old timer but here is my two cents.

you can make knives with very limited tools to start with. how far and how complex will factor in at some point. lots of guys start with nothing much more than a hand drill and a few files. you can get the job done it just takes more time. the delta can work to speed things up but its not really designed for what we do. there are makes here on the forum that turn out great knives with very few tools.

the heat treatment is a bit harder. In my opinion you should stick with one of the simpler high carbon steels, maybe 1084, 1075, even O1. they can be harden (not to their best) with a simple torch or charcoal forge. then tempered in you kitchen oven. keep in mind the you will get better results as you upgrade your tools and process. I feel its more about practice than fancy tools.

you might want to pick up a copy of Wayne Goddard's Fifty Dollar Knife Shop. he has some very basic ideas that can help you get started.

Erik

[Ray Rogers]

I agree with what Erik said. I would alternately suggest that you might try 440C stainless for your first knives because you can send it to Texas Knifemakers for heat treatment very cheaply and it makes an excellent blade. Later, after you have time to build a forge you can switch to 1084 and learn to do your own heat treating.

Beyond that, everything you need to know to get started is already in this forum, use the Search feature to find answers to common questions. You could also join us in the Chat Room on Sunday afternoon (see the Sticky thread at the top of the forum). That's a fun and easy way to get up to speed quickly ...

[jmccustomknives]

Heat treating can be done with a yard sale toaster oven and a torch which I'd think you'd already have. Both Goddards books are good. I use a 4x36 belt sander and files. Remember, for thousands of years smith's made blades with very simple tools. All it takes it a little know how (here and books) and lots of practice. You've probably got a good supply of used files, you can shape them on the belt sander (don't grind with stone wheels on hardened steel, it can break) and temper them in the toaster oven. easy.

[Doug Lester]

The toaster oven will only do half of the job. The other half, austinizing, can be done with a torch but you will need to stick with simple steels like 1070, 1080, or 1084 or you can run into problems with longer soaking time that can be kind of tricky by that method. If you use a stainless steel, you can send it out for treatment.

If you use a 4X36" sander as a grinder put a secondary platen beneath the belt to help cut the bevels. Your selection of belts for metal removal will be limited. Draw filing is always a choice but some have learned to rough the bevels with an angle grinder.

Doug

[SamB]

Originally Posted by Doug Lester

The toaster oven will only do half of the job. The other half, austinizing,

Doug

If you use already hardened you won't have to re harden them. When grinding if the blade doesn't overheat and lose its hardness its perfectly fine to grind it into whatever shape he wants. The only problem is drilling the holes.

[jmccustomknives]

Originally Posted by SamB

If you use already hardened you won't have to re harden them. When grinding if the blade doesn't overheat and lose its hardness its perfectly fine to grind it into whatever shape he wants. The only problem is drilling the holes.

My way around that, narrow tang and silver braze a thread section. Works great. Note: when I do this I use the torch to temper the tang to a good spring hardness to increase the strength. I'll also fit the guard before brazing. There's a million ways to do something. Just as many to do it wrong.

[bjmac]

thank you for the replies, folks. looking forward to more learning.

[Doug Lester]

The big problem with using hardened steel is that it's brittle and under a lot of stress. I'm not saying that you absolutely cannot grind as quenched steel but you are more likely to end up with broken blades. The other problem is where are you going to get hardened steel. What is sold as hardened steel is actually hardened and tempered. The temper may not be correct for use as a knife. Most who grind their blades in a hardened form are just doing the quench hardening and tempering before they grind in the bevels to cut down on things like warping. They still have to have a source of heat to austinize the steel or they need to send it out. High carbon and complex alloys require more control than you can get from a torch reliably. It only takes a few seconds at too high of a temperature to produce excessive retained austinite.

Doug

[Crex]

I think the biggest and best thing you can do for yourself at this "starting" point, is to search out the credible information available (as advised above) and do some serious reading/studying until you get a full grasp of what you want to accomplish. As is obvious, there are a million ways to skin the neighbor's cat, you have to decide what you want to settle on and focus there to get the basics down.
Search out an accomplished maker (lots of hacks out there in disguise) and spend time with them in their shop. That will knock the top off any self taught learning curve.
The rest is just application, practice and sweat, which shouldn't be a problem (if it is this is the wrong game for you).

[Gary Mulkey]

What you will need to decide is do you want to just make a few knives for the fun of doing it or do you want to take it seriously and make a proper knife. If the later, then Carl is right on. More than any other factor the H/T will determine the quality of the cutting edge and if you want to produce quality then that is not the place for guessing or almost.

You asked about "how the old timers did it". They often did it with a coal forge because that's all that they had and probably didn't get it right very often until they had years of experience (and even may have had to redo it often). The H/T'ing of steel is an exact science when done properly.

Have fun & let us know how you do.

Gary

[Doug Lester]

Depending on how far back you wanted to define "old timers" they would have considered a piece of 1080 to be some wonder steel. I have no idea of how they judged carbon content, especially being that carbon was unknown until about the time of the American Revolution. Then came judging temperatures. With all the variables the effected the end product it was a wonder that they came up with anything.

Doug

[WynnKnives]

Well when your bashing two chunks of steel together (swords naturally speaking), I don't think edge retention and shaving hair is of huge concern.

[Ray Rogers]

QUOTE: Well when your bashing two chunks of steel together (swords naturally speaking), I don't think edge retention and shaving hair is of huge concern.

So true, but not having your blade snap off was probably a VERY big concern....

[Crex]

After reading Doug's reply above, I got to poking around on the net and found this information. Lots of reading but pretty interesting about the progressive development of iron to steel. Lot of background research referenced but the writer is up front about it being his interpretation of what he's gathered together.
Most important part in there is the coal-to-coke conversion discovered by beer makers.....hoist a pint brothers in honor of the art!

History of Steel - http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/ama...ed/t5_1_4.html