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  #1  
Old 03-06-2001, 08:08 AM
dogman
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Dirk Style Knives


Does the term Dirk apply to the shape of the knife or the use of the knife? I am working on a dirk pattern, but it will have a single grind. Does it require a double grind to be considered a true dirk?

I will eventually double grind the pattern, but it only allows for a dagger grind, which I am not ready to tackle yet.
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  #2  
Old 03-06-2001, 11:27 AM
JerryO13
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Bob,

the earliest (archeological find) dirks were single edge.

OK, I actually looked something up
_ _ _ _ According to "Arms through the ages" by William Reid. The ballock knife is from and was used in the northern European regions mainly Germany and Britain. It was worn in front hung low between the thighs and It's no coincidence that it resembles male genitalia. There is a chicken and egg controversy over which came first the Scottish "durk" or "dirk" or the "ballock" knife, which was later known as a "kidney" knife and a "dudgeon" knife (not dungeon, dudgeon it's a root that the handles were made from).
_ _ _ _ The term kidney knife came about in the 19th century where the Victorian need to not offend delicate sensibilities (see any similarities to today?) led to the name change. At this same time, the term hand-and-a-half sword came up as well and for similar reasons. This sword had a handle that was too long for use with one hand and yet not quite long enough for two. This sword type came to be called a "bastard" sword. This was deemed too vulgar and so the kinder gentler appellation is applied.
_ _ _ _ Historical earlier versions of ballock knives have been discovered than dirks, but that doesn't mean that a new find is not ready to shake up the archeological record.
_ _ _ _ It is correct to assume from the shape of the blade that it was primarily originally a stabbing weapon. The implication here is that the steel used was strong enough for a point, but not good in the edge holding department.
_ _ _ _ The earlier versions tend to have smaller blades, which leads to two possibilities, one as steel smithing became better the blades got longer and sharper and two that the blades day to day use changed from a using tool to a combat role where the extra reach was appreciated.
_ _ _ _ Some of these knives (the dirks) became so large that a small fork and "by knyf" was added to the sheath, these where eating implements and performed the utility tasks that the dirk was to large for.
_ _ _ _ The ballock knife either lent itself out to other areas where similar knives where made, or the basic style is so common that it naturally lent itself to being discovered in multiple areas.
_ _ _ _ The "Rondel" dagger is a very similar blade shape and style of knife to the ballock. The significant difference being that the Rondel dagger used two round disks (wood w/ iron reinforcements) as the guard and pommel. There are also "ear" daggers which also have similar shape and style the difference being that the pommel has two wings or "ears". In combat the ears lent a spot for the thumb to be hooked over (capping the pommel) in a reverse grip. The thumb over the ears would also let you index the blade.So what you have is very similar knives with minor differences.
_ _ _ _ To bring this to a more modern perspective, the Rondel is credited as the ancestor of the more modern stiletto (the dagger, not the cheap Italian auto). A famous stabbing only style dagger. While Dirks are said to have influenced more modern designs, such as Fairbairn - Sykes W.W.II combat knife.

side note:The banning of the dirk after 1745 gave rise to the Sgian Dubh, or skean dhu, the small, sheathed knife tucked into the top of the stocking on the right leg, and which is still worn with all forms of Highland dress. Sgian Dubh means literally 'dagger black'. Although traditionally they had black handles, there was a hidden meaning to 'black' - dark, dangerous and secret!

Wow, well that was pretty wordy, got's to be more careful while lookin' stuff up

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  #3  
Old 03-06-2001, 03:23 PM
srjknives
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Thanks, Jery, good information.

I was going to report that I thought that the word "dirk" had something to do with the sgian dubh - and that's the place I got/lifted the "Dirk" name for the little boot knife I offer. I assumed, correctly it appears, that they didn't necessarily have to be double-edged and were stabbers, more than slicers.

Please keep on doing that research and sharing it with us.

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  #4  
Old 03-06-2001, 04:52 PM
george tichbourne
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A great number of the early dirks carry Solingen marks on them as the canny Scots got around English laws on weapons making by importing broken swords as scrap metal from the continent and regrinding them into dirks. As these swords were not commonly double edged neither were the dirks.

Typical dirks were straight backed, occasionally with filework to introduce air into the wound, and a fairly straight cutting edge. The resulting shape was usually triangular with the blade profile tapering from about 1 1/2" or 2" wide at the ricasso to a tip about 12 to 15" away. Early handles were of the bollocks design with a round handle terminating in a bolster looking like a pair of connected balls(round objects). Some were cast on the tang in brass. Later handles tended towards darker wood and the bolster became less pronounced while the handle began to take on the now popular "thistle " profile. Victorian dirks added a "jewelled" pommel (usually glass beads), upright at first and canted forward in later models.
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  #5  
Old 03-06-2001, 05:44 PM
JerryO13
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George is right on the money with the importation of broken swords as the foundation of many dirks. So depending on what the tip of the broken sword looked like that's what you got. Single edge, double edge, or single edge with some of the spine sharpened for back cuts. However the broken sword came that's what was made. The shein du's were small cause those ancient scotsman had laws limiting blade length!
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  #6  
Old 03-07-2001, 10:08 PM
CKDadmin
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I'm interested in why the need for laws on blade lenght back in those times. Does anyone know for what purpose the law existed?

It would seem to me that it was "every man for himself" back in those days ... was this a Roman Law designed to de-arm the population in the province?

I mean, the Vikings were a major threat to everyone back then ... I'd like to be able to stand as far away from one of those marauders as possible, if I had to fight one. It was pretty lonely back on some of those costal areas, you know?

Alex
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  #7  
Old 03-08-2001, 11:23 AM
JerryO13
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I check later, but I think it was a English attempt to hold down the Scots.
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  #8  
Old 03-08-2001, 05:16 PM
george tichbourne
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It was an English attempt to protect tnemselves from the barbaric Scots.
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  #9  
Old 03-08-2001, 07:46 PM
CKDadmin
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You know, I'd say the world owes a lot, in terms of knife making refinement, to those folks. Some of the knife and sword entries I've seen in the English Crown Jewel collections are fabulous works.

Alex
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  #10  
Old 03-09-2001, 02:04 AM
ansoknives
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No one would put a law limiting blade length on the Vikings and be able to walk away.

Jens Ans?
Knifemaker and Kimber (we beat those romans)
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  #11  
Old 03-09-2001, 12:19 PM
CKDadmin
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You've got that right! Except late at night when they we're all about to pass-out from being too drunk. :
Alex
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