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Fine Embellishment Everything from hand engraving and scrimshaw to filework and carving. The fine art end of the knifemaker's craft.

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  #1  
Old 02-02-2006, 07:33 PM
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Julie Coffey Julie Coffey is offline
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Acid etching- an enquiry.

This falls a bit ahead of my personal schedual but a request landed on my desk for a coronet. Nothing new to that but they wanted this one out of metal, and its for a lady who has terminal cancer and is schedualed for presentation at an SCA event next weekend.



I purchased a sheet of nickle silver from a online source. Beaded it, cut the contours and prepared to use resist.



I only had paint available for use this time and marker pens to clean up any edges.





This is the makeshift bathwell that I have made since I didnt have enough acid to fill a vertical chamber (based on Ed Caffrey's video) I opted for a more material saving half bath- that way I could use the second piece for the TSP bath.



I have a cradle that these rest in so they dont roll.

Now my question is this- I cut the ferric chloride to a 1.3 ratio. The process is going very slowly. I know Montejano uses Nitric for his baths. But I had a devil of a time finding the etching solution and not be questioned as to why I needed 2+bottles of the stuff.

Has anyone else used Nitric for etching and where is a good source for it to be located.

Thank you in advance for any suggestions and advice.

Julie


Just checked the bath and the paint and tape is holding up, its going very slowly. Its down in the basement unfinished but warm, with ventilation. I have a back up piece I can use incase I have a great learning experiance with this. Guess I'm just a bit apprehensive, something new don't ya know.


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Last edited by Julie Coffey; 02-03-2006 at 03:08 AM.
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Old 02-02-2006, 07:48 PM
ron p. nott ron p. nott is offline
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hi julie.. look up this address www.cronite.com i did purchase some from them years ago they specialize in etching supplies .. ron


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  #3  
Old 02-02-2006, 09:06 PM
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Julie Coffey Julie Coffey is offline
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Thanks Ron- I'll be sure to check them out ASAP.

Well its out of the bath, not as deep as I would have liked but nice contrast and it buffed out splendidly- will have to guard against any dings or biffs in the future if I do any more of these. But the etching is fun. I've learned a few things this time around. I'm looking forward to applying what I've learned to future projects.



Sorry its not as good a photo as I'd like, sun was down and its hard to catch the polished bits against the satin background well. I certainly have alot of learning ahead of me.

Julie


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Old 02-02-2006, 09:15 PM
Barry Lee Hands Barry Lee Hands is offline
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what did you use for the design? is that a stencil?
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Old 02-02-2006, 09:21 PM
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if you live in or near a larger metro area, there are chemical supply companies which sell nitric acid for labratories and colleges. nitric acid is on the federal watch list for terrorist activities and many distributors won't sell to new customers , only established businesses with the need to use the acid. ferric cloride is availible at any good art supply store with no questions asked,Dick Blick art supplies is one. what type of paint and the brand name did you use for the resist?
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Old 02-02-2006, 10:03 PM
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Julie Coffey Julie Coffey is offline
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Hi Barry, no its not a stencil- the pattern is taken from the cover page of F. Knights Scroll Ornaments of the Victorian Period. When I got my Ngraver from Fred M. he threw in a copy of the book the give me a leg up on my engraving library.

I'm not as blessed as Montejano who can free hand this sort of thing onto metal- so I used acetone transfers and then painted over the top of them- of course the paint and the initial transfer came off as cleans as you please with a wash of acetone when it was all done.

Shakudo, thank you for the heads up on the nitric acid. Its funny you should mention about not having difficulty aquiring the ferric chloride. I did have trouble getting it, I called a chemical dealer here in Battle Creek who argued with me saying I dont need acid. I later re-watched Eds video and remembered the Radio shack option. But the stores only carry 2 bottles at a time. It took an afternoon to find two bottles and even then I was questioned as to what I was going to do with it. Guess I dont look like a computer guru . But it gave me a chance to share with him what I was doing and about pattern welded steel.

The paint I used was Painters fine acrylic available from Walmart, they have bottles and pen sets. I used both but had to go to the small brush to get the points on the leaves. I never realised my hands were so shaky. Will have to get a bean bag or something to steady it for future efforts.

I know wood and leather can get in your blood. My hands smell of nickle, and I cant wait to get started on my next project. Etched brass plates to go on my new SCA belt.

J


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Old 02-02-2006, 11:19 PM
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Julie:

VERY Interesting documentation. It's the first time I have seen this process done, and I was wondering how it used. Thanks for sharing your new experiment with us.

Mark
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Old 02-03-2006, 02:55 AM
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Julie Coffey Julie Coffey is offline
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Thank you Monti :)

I'm glad everyone enjoyed the photos and progression. I think it only fair to thank whole heartedly Montejano for all his help, explanations and long distance assistance. I've been emailing him since he began posting on here last year.

He has been supportive and generous with his knoweldge. Even though both of us are working with the disadvantage of using 'online' translators.

Thank you Angel! I promise the work will only get better.

Julie


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Old 02-03-2006, 04:10 PM
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I hope that Fernando F. Escudero help us ( fcuder )
Only I will put it in Spanish and if Fernando might he will translate it to English.


Espero que nos ayude Fernando F. Escudero ( fcuder )
Solo lo pondr? en espa?ol y si puede Fernando lo traducir? al ingl?s .



Amiga Julia

La felicito por su trabajo , es un comienzo bastante bueno . Es una l?stima que no pueda ver la fotograf?a m?s de cerca , para darle mi opini?n sobre aspectos m?s t?cnicos de su grabado .

Le agradezco sus palabras de consideraci?n y respeto hacia mi persona ; muchas gracias amiga Julie .

Deseo aprovechar su poste , para hacerle alg?n comentario y no tener que abrir otro poste distinto por mi parte .


Ha mencionado el cloruro f?rrico en el inicio de su grabado , este ?cido es muy efectivo en la mayor?a de los metales ; tiene ventajas e inconvenientes .
Sus ventajas son que ataca muy bien y respeta tanto los bordes del grabado , como el sombreado interno del mismo.El inconveniente es que es lento en su ataque ; ? Tiene usted prisa ? ? No corra Julie !.
Un buen grabado debe ser lento , como un buen vino necesita a?os en un viejo tonel .
Cuando el ?cido ataca muy deprisa destroza el grabado o le quita calidad al acabado.
Pero para que el Cloruro f?rrico le ataque m?s r?pido , puede prepararlo con agua algo caliente ( moderada ) o si ya lo tiene usted preparado , lo puede calentar dentro del recipiente aport?ndole algo de calor ( estufa , secador , durante unos minutos ) . El ?cido caliente es m?s agresivo en su ataque .

Yo empleo el ?cido n?trico muy a menudo , pero no empleo solo este ?cido .















Estas fotos son de un trabajo de hace unos d?as y lo realic? con n?trico . El n?trico tiene el inconveniente que ensancha los trazos del sombreado y su ataque es menos controlable que con el cloruro . Ataca muy agresivamente las paredes del dibujo ( tinta ).
Lo que no quiere decir , que no se pueda hacer un buen grabado de l?neas y trazos delicados con este ?cido ;

La tinta empleada en su grabado no la conozco , aunque hay multitud de productos anti?cidos en el mercado usted debe de probar los que encuentre y hacer muchas pruebas . Una buena tinta debe de fluir con una plumilla ; comprendo que no es f?cil preparar una tinta con esas caracter?sticas , pero debe ser fluida . Debe de ser de secado r?pido ( 12 horas como m?ximo ) para que sea pr?ctica y que al sombrear o rayar con el punz?n sobre esta tinta , la tinta no se desquebraje ( salten t?stanas o trozos ) .Revise usted el poste que mostr? el a?o pasado.
Si la tinta es de calidad podr? dibujar como en el grabado de Jim ( navaja ) o el grabado del quijote ( navaja que grab? el a?o pasado y que med?a la hoja de la navaja 2 metros de longitud - 4 metros abierta , es la m?s grande de Espa?a )















En este grabado del Quijote , comenc? a sombrear a los 10 minutos de dibujar con tinta y me permite sombrear durante 1 hora aproximadamente ; despu?s de la hora tendr?a problemas de excesivo secado de la tinta y esta podr?a saltar " escamas" . Para evitar esto se tendr?a que utilizar algo de cera en su composici?n y no me agrada abusar de la cera en las tintas .

Por ?ltimo amiga Julie , le dir? que el ?cido que mejor ataca a metales como el cobre , el lat?n , alpaca .. ..Es el " Mordiente Holandes " se le ha considerado como una versi?n del utilizado en la ?poca de Rembrandt .
Es muy efectivo , ataca muy bien las l?neas finas y delicadas . Yo lo he empleado en alguna ocasi?n pero para grabados en plancha ( estampaci?n en papel ) y me dio un resultado extraordinario . Pero tiene el inconveniente de los gases , este ?cido emana unos gases muy desagradables y molestos . Se debe emplear al aire libre totalmente .
Aunque si se prepara en un recipiente y se deja destapado el ?cido , los vapores se despejan y despu?s se puede utilizar . Pero si utiliza el cloruro no tendr? estos problemas y en su ataque es similar al " mordiente holandes ".

Le mostrar? un grabado en papel con " mordiente holandes " ( 20 gramos de clorato pot?sico , 880 gramos de agua y 100 gramos de clorh?drico puro ) el "mordiente holand?s" tiene diversas mezclas seg?n se desee que ataque m?s o menos fuerte .





















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Old 02-03-2006, 04:23 PM
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Julie





Este grabado en papel tiene alrededor de 45 cm de altura , esto indica que es grande para un grabado en papel , me llev? mucho trabajo y lo realice por trozos ; conforme vert?a tinta en la plancha de cobre , iba trazando el dibujo con el punz?n ( antes de que se secase en exceso la tinta )

Algunos amigos en el foro han hablado de " agua regia " pero particularmente la deseo para el oro de ley ( el ?nico ?cido que parece ataquerle al oro ).


Mi opini?n personal amiga Julie y con la intenci?n de ayudarla , es que si no puede usted conseguir con facilidad el n?trico , emplee con tranquilidad el cloruro ( aunque vaya m?s lento en sus grabados ).

Le repito mi agradecimiento por su menci?n tan respetuosa en el foro y le deseo que progrese con sus grabados .RECUERDE CALENTAR EL ?CIDO .( Un poco )

Un saludo

Montejano
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  #11  
Old 02-03-2006, 09:14 PM
MCirelli MCirelli is offline
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Julie the etching looks good.
You may want to look in Rio Grande's catalog. They have a 1 hour etching system that works simular to photo etching. You can use your patern over and over again, like silk screening. I have read up on it. It seems to be a very good and reliable system. Size may be an issue for you though.
Mike
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Old 02-03-2006, 10:13 PM
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Julie, after seeing your etching,i would save the $144 dollars for the rio etching system and not even think about it. you can do so much more by hand than you could ever do with the rio etching system. it's a japanese silk screen paper printing system that has been used for metal etching. unless the resist has changed a lot in 7 years i doubt the quality would come close to the crown you just finished.
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Old 02-04-2006, 12:15 AM
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A rough translation of part of Montejano's post says that ferric chloride has the advantage of being well behaved and respecting the edges, but it's slower. A good engraving must be slow, as wine ages in an old barrel. (I think that's a cool quote!)

If you can't get nitric acid, use the ferric chloride, but that it will be slower. Some people have suggested aqua regia, but that is only needed for gold. (Aqua regia is a mixture of sulphuric acid and nitric acid.)

Montejano's suggestion is that if you want to speed things up, heat the solution (but only a little!) Use hot water to mix with the ferric chloride.

The best etchant, according to M. is something he calls Dutch Mordant. It's a mixture of potassium chlorate and hydrochloric acid. He says you pretty much have to use it outdoors because of the toxic fumes. (Potassium chlorate is regulated by Homeland Security, so I'd say forget this one.)

I translated this using Babelfish and my knowledge of chemistry. M. gives lots of other advice in his post, so hopefully someone fluent in both languages will provide a complete translation.


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Old 02-04-2006, 12:37 AM
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Our friend Fernando ( fcuder ) will translate it to as soon as he and else the fcuder may translate it ( I will translate it to English with the translator ).
As the fcuder told me that he would help himself in translations, I showed it only upon Spanish ( not to put so much text ).
I correct our friend Texas, in the translation ( water royal - 1 part of nitric and 3 parts of hydrochloric )
Friendly thanks Texas, for his help.


Montejano
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Old 02-04-2006, 04:41 AM
rrrf68 rrrf68 is offline
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Julie,

How you doing these days? Haven"t heard how that NgraveR is working out for you. I might suggest that you take a look at NASCO on line. Don't have the web site address but should be able to find with a google search. They are supplies to schools but also sell to individuals. They have lots of this kind of thing for vocational education, craft classes, photo engraving programs etc. When I taught graphic arts I had my students work with both photo etching and hand cut. They have several specalty catalogs that are good to have around. I will see if I can find the web site for you. Incidently, if you want to do photo etching you can use transparencies from your printer or copier rather that photo positives. Fred

PS The NASCO site is www.enasco.com you should look up acid, etching solutions, etching photo etching you will find a wealth of stuff is small quanities. The acids require specia shipping however. I am not sure about the hassles with the patriot act crap. You will also find supplies in Rio Grand and Stuller (bought out SWEST) catalogs.


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Last edited by rrrf68; 02-04-2006 at 05:09 AM.
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