Your Thoughts?

[ARCustomKnives]

Originally Posted by cdent

I think the important thing is the 'most of' part. I'm guessing that the tasks that put metal on metal are the deal breakers, and it doesn't seem like you're too keen on them either.

I think a purpose built 'knife' could be hammered into a steel drum all day long and wear its scratches like a badge of honor, but what if someone tries that with a 3 1/2" skinner just because it has the same makers mark on it.

Possibly worse, what if a knife is eliminated early on because the spine mushroomed a bit from the mallet. Is that a reasonable reflection on the maker's ability to place dead last in the 'competition'.

Maybe they should also have a bbq sauce competition to do something with all the pork goodness.

Just thinking it's an apples and oranges thing, Craig

I definitely don't think that every knife a maker makes (from a mini neck knife to a "holy crap that's huge" chopper) should be able to pass all of these tests. I'm not even going to say that a lot of them are practical for "really" testing a blade.

That being sad, and average sized blade with good geometry should do well with most of these tests at least once. I've cut clean through a 14ga stranded extension cord with a 2" long necker blade in one draw stroke before. It didn't chip or roll my edge. It did dull it more than a rope would have though. That's to be expected.
Was it practical? No. Would I ever recommend anybody do that? No. Did it show that my blade was heat treated properly? Well, if it wasn't, I wouldn't have had those results.

Could I have then hammered that same knife through a 55 gallon drum a couple times? Probably. Would I do that with a fillet knife? Negative.

There are definintely differences in different styles and materials of knives, and not all will perform like another. If that were the case, we'd all make one kind of blade out of one kind of steel. I'm just saying, it may not hurt to test a knife beyond what you're comfortable with every now and then, just to make sure you're not pushing it to it's limits with normal tasks.

Now, just because I can chop a power cable in half with a neck knife, or open a steel drum with it, does NOT mean I'm going to warranty my work for that.

But, if I can sell my knives with "theatrics", who not? Cold Steel is probably most famous for their "absolute proof" and "solid proof" videos where they do just that:
Cut free hanging rope, drive points through barrels and car hoods, sever wire and 2x4s, etc... etc....

The fact of the matter is, a lot of it really isn't THAT impressive if you really think about it, and most any well designed, well made knife, should be able to handle it. A lot of it is just simple physics and geometry.

[ron58]

how many times have you been doing something and drop your knife and just about every time it hits point first on the concrete?and most times it comes out ok,now if you put some force behind it yes it's going to mess it up!
i have a little case sodbuster with a 2 1/2" carbon blade and i have used that knife to do just about everyone of those things!i cut wire,leather,thick leather,soda cans to bean cans with it,i have used it for putting the screw back in my reel and other things but just tight enough so i can get done what needs to done and then at a later time fix it right with the right tool.
and there's the word,it's a tool and all tools are misused now and again!i guess what i'm saying is if that little sodbuster can take the misuse then the knives we make should be able too!

[WBE]

A basic knife has but one purpose, and that is to cut. Any other usage is at the owners risk, and would have to be considered mis-use by strict diffinition. If it chips when used as a screw driver, breaks or bends as a prybar, or deforms, chips, or breaks when it is hammered on, then it has not yet failed it's intended purpose. In the case of a knife designed and made to do all these things without damage, yes, it should be able to do them and survive with no serious affect. Due to hype and sales pitches, the average public has come to expect too much from the common knife, which is still just a cutting instrument, unless otherwise designed. The choice of steel, heat treatment, and design, can make the difference between a do-all knife, and a knife made to cut well when cleaning game, or common cutting chores. All in all, there is no knife that does everything as well as the tool/knife, designed for the job.

[hsjrev]

I think this kind of hype, showmanship or whatever has been around for a long time. Just look at the old Buck logo that showed a fixed blade knife being hammered into a big nail to cut it.



I also remember talking to some fellow Marines who had Bagwell fighters in the 80's and he had told them they could hammer them into walls or trees for steps and the only thing he didn't recommend was hitting the cutting edge against the edge of another knife to see which was tougher.

I think in both cases the makers were smart enough to know that almost no customers would really try that stuff with a knife they had paid their hard earned money for, and even if they did, the maker could say it was abuse.
I've seen more of these "torture tests" in magazines and blogs in the last few years with the growing popularity of tactical stuff. Seems like knives are supposed to stab an ammo can about 20 times these days as part of normal use? I agree it's kinda silly and misleading and has little to do with what a knife is made for, but it seems to resonate with the public, especially the younger folks. Hopefully they get exposed to the voices of reason along with the hype.

[grant]

It would be fun to make a "tactical" can opener to use on the can opening test. "Tactical" versions of the other appropriate tools would be funny, too.

[Ed Tipton]

I wonder if we're not missing the point here. I doubt there is even one among us who would advocate the misuse or abuse of even a common knife. But I also doubt that there is one among us who would not swell with pride after having our knife pass such a challenge....even though it is pretty lame in some areas. The simple fact that our knife was put to the test...and survived the test....is noteable and worthwhile. I do agree that the true test of a knife is it's ability to cut.
I think a much more realistic test would be to take a shaving sharp knife, and cut through a layered stack of ten - used 100 grit 2 inch sanding belts, three separate times, while resting on a flat surface, and then compare it with it's original sharpness by performing something as simple as a rope cut. This would be a good non-destructive test but would pretty quickly determine how well the knife would hold up to a severe cutting task. The belts should be held flat and "in register" with each other and be cut starting on the abrasive face and continuing down through the stack until it has been cut through....three separate times, by starting the cut near the ricasso and pulling the entire length of the blade through the stack until the task is performed.. This would not destroy the knife since it would need a simple re-sharpening, and yet it would be a pretty severe test of the ability of the knife to hold up under severe cutting conditions and performing it's intended function.

[jonwelder]

I'm with you on this one Ed! I once entered a cutting event, cut rope, dowels, pop cans with water, and chopped water bottles, all for what? The real test of my knife was "boning-out" 3- 200lb hogs without re-sharpening my knife made from 1080 steel. THAT"S what knives are for! That's me on the far right. Jon

[Ed Caffrey]

Just look at the old Buck logo that showed a fixed blade knife being hammered into a big nail to cut it.

I had to smile when I saw that image.....Buck used that for a lot of years. But...does anyone know why they stopped using that graphic? I can tell you. Buck's policy was that if a knife failed/broke, etc. you could send in the knife/pieces and they would send you a new one. That became so expensive for them, that they had a study done to determine why they were sending out so many replacement knives..... it was determined that image was contributing to all the damaged/broken blades......not long after they ceased using that logo.

I wonder if we're not missing the point here. I doubt there is even one among us who would advocate the misuse or abuse of even a common knife. The simple fact that our knife was put to the test...and survived the test....is noteable and worthwhile.

I have not doubt that any experienced knifemaker could create a knife that would make it through all the tasks listed.

But I also doubt that there is one among us who would not swell with pride after having our knife pass such a challenge....even though it is pretty lame in some areas.

My thought is that therein lies the trap! We all like that little stroke on our egos, but at what cost? I have no doubt that many knifemakers, including myself, could participate in a challenge like that, and pass all those tasks. But what kind of message is that sending? I had visions of clients buying knives, then a few months later, getting phone calls from angry people because the knife/knives they purchased from me did not hold up when they tried to use it as a screwdriver, or a prybar, or they tried to cut the top off a 55gal drum with it! The way I view it, even though it might be a few moments of glory, it would be paid for with a lot of grief and "damage control" down the road. In other words I think it would just be a lot of self created pain.
Maybe much of my attitude towards this comes from all these years of being a knifemaker and the experiences that go along with that...I've won my fair share of cutting competitions, and inevitably after winning those kinds of events, a maker will get a number of orders for knives similar to the ones used in the event(s).......and somewhere in there, a client will try to do something with the knife that is just plain wrong.
One example that springs to mind is an individual who ordered a "chopper" from me after I had won an ABS cutting competition. About a month after he received the knife, I got an irate phone call telling me that the knife had "failed". After calming the individual down, and sorting it out, the fella had tried to cut/chop through an old tire with the knife....and had no idea that it was a steel belted tire....what was once a straight sharp edge, had turned into a serrated edge from repeated impacts to the edge of the steel belt(s) in the tire! This was obviously a person with more money than sense, but the issue remained...do I repair/replace the knife for free and essentially endorse his actions? I ended up repairing the knife, charging him only shop rate labor, but he grumbled the whole time.
I have no doubt that by participating in that cutting competition, that I set myself up for that experience. See what I mean? That's what I was getting at when I said that by participating in an event where a knifemaker performs questionable tasks with a knife, they are essentially telling the world that it's OK to abuse/misuse a knife in the same manner... and someone, somewhere, will take it to the extreme...causing grief for the knifemaker.

[ARCustomKnives]

Originally Posted by Ed Caffrey

That's what I was getting at when I said that by participating in an event where a knifemaker performs questionable tasks with a knife, they are essentially telling the world that it's OK to abuse/misuse a knife in the same manner... and someone, somewhere, will take it to the extreme...causing grief for the knifemaker.

This is where a properly crafted disclaimer can make all the difference, IMO.
Then you have the extra boost in buyer confidence, without the liability. Let the buyer beware and show some common sense.

Just to give a slightly different perspective:
Anybody who knows about the basic requirements to becoming a mastersmith knows that you have to pass certain "tests" up to and including bending your blade over 90 degrees without breaking it. Many people undoubtedly buy your knives because they know that you have indeed made knives that passed this test.

How many of your customers have ever called you to ask if you would straighten their knife blade back out for them?

[gsimmo]

What Ed states about his client is exactly the type of "consumer" response that I would be worried about. Just because a blade can, and should, be able to withstand the tests indicated in a controlled environment, does not mean that the person who purchases the blade should use or expect that performance on a regular basis. That being said, when someone post a video on 'tube showing that a blade can do these tasks will the "common sense" of a person watching override the urge to try it out on their blade? What would happen if a kid saw it and decided it would be cool to show his friends using a cheep china made blade? Things these days have a tendency to go "viral" online rather quickly and none of us could hope to protest the misuse of a blade enough to stop some yahoo from possibly causing serious damage to themselves, much less what repeated abuse of the blade would cause. Not everyone cares enough nor would think enough about the blade that they are using. I just feel that this would be too much of a risk to all involved.

-Geoff

[cdent]

Originally Posted by ARCustomKnives

This is where a properly crafted disclaimer can make all the difference, IMO.
Then you have the extra boost in buyer confidence, without the liability. Let the buyer beware and show some common sense.

Just to give a slightly different perspective:
Anybody who knows about the basic requirements to becoming a mastersmith knows that you have to pass certain "tests" up to and including bending your blade over 90 degrees without breaking it. Many people undoubtedly buy your knives because they know that you have indeed made knives that passed this test.

How many of your customers have ever called you to ask if you would straighten their knife blade back out for them?

Just an opinion, but once a knife leaves your hands you may not know where it'll end up and how it'll be used. I still don't understand how someone could have confidence in a standard hunter to be a screw driver or sheet metal punch just because they won a competition with a different purpose built knife.

I'd also guess the performance test of the MS stamp kind of gets lost in the shuffle to a customer. Chances are a knife has to look right in whatever ways are important to a customer for the money to be forked over. Everyone wants to see the pictures of the five judged knives, but we rarely see pictures of the bent performance test knife. I also believe the ABS stamp system levels the playing field, rather than create more variables.

Take care, Craig

[hsjrev]

I also remember MS Bob Kramer hammering the spine of a kitchen knife to cut through a steel bolt on CBS's Sunday Morning show. I wonder if that ever caused any problems for him with customers trying that?

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5738120n

[jim poling]

I agree with you Ed, I have always thought that this was the sort of thing that could only lead to miconseptions and problems in the long run. In an age where everything has a disclamer on it.....??

Jim

[Ed Caffrey]

In an age where everything has a disclamer on it.....??

That's a great point Jim! And it's exactly the kind of thing that I was thinking about. It seems that on a large scale, common sense these days is about as common as hen's teeth. All I could think about was participating the that event, then down the road having someone who owns one of my knives call me up and say something like.... "I tried to hammer this knife through a bunch of wire and the edge rolled over on it!" I just think doing things like that with a knife, in a public setting would be just like telling customers that they can do whatever they want with a knife, and it will be warrantied.