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  #1  
Old 08-12-2016, 01:16 AM
iandev iandev is offline
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Help identifying this possibly vintage randall knife please.

Hey Randall experts, I have a fairly old Randall knife here that belongs to my father. He got it from an old friend that I believe was a soldier in the Vietnam war.

I am wondering if it's old enough to have been his military knife during the Vietnam war. I'd also like to find out when it was made, what model it is, and what it could be worth.

The blade itself is about 7 inches long and the handle is a green color, looks like the material is micarta, although I am not 100% positive on that. The handle has 2 pins. The tang extends slightly, about a half inch, past the handle with a hole in it for a lanyard. On one side is engraved "RANDALL MADE ORLANDO,FLA" with 2 sword icons on either side of the engraved text. There is what looks like someones initials engraved on the guard, "R.A.P".

It is in very great condition with some minor scuffs near the edge of the blade. The sheath is fairly badly worn out.

Pictures below.





Any help identifying this knife is greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Ian

Last edited by iandev; 08-12-2016 at 02:45 PM.
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  #2  
Old 08-12-2016, 05:40 AM
BoBlade BoBlade is offline
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Hi and welcome, Ian.

Your knife is a Model 16 "Divers knife". It was made in circa 1960 (I can't pin it down any better. Maybe someone else can). The handle material is called "Tenite" Bo sourced it from Germany. Typically this material was green, but there were a few other colors (Primarily white or tan). It wasn't too long before it was discovered that the material shrunk over time, and Bo moved on to "Micarta" as a man made material. Tenite was used on Models 14, 15 & 16. By far the rarest was the Model 16 Dive Knife. It's worth a lot of $! If you're thinking about selling it, make sure you research the market value.

Best,
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  #3  
Old 08-12-2016, 07:21 AM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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Very nice Model 16 dive knife
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  #4  
Old 08-12-2016, 12:13 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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I'll add a bit. I'm at work don't have books showing when M-16 was introduced, which I think may have been about 1958. I know Gaddis wrote that the fourth M-16 ever made was made in January, 1959. So this one is probably one of the earlier ones I am aware of and Ron's estimate of 1960 is probably as close as one can get. Yes it could have been carried in Vietnam, though it would more likely to have been early in the advisor stage of the war than later.

The condition of the handle (no shrinkage) and the blade which appears to be without rust and pitting, would make me wonder if it were carried there. Carbon steel blades rusted at an alarming rate in Vietnam. However, given the moderately scarred state of the sheath and knife, they do appear to have been used and carried. So it is possible/probable, this is an unmarked Randall stainless steel blade.

Stainless blades were listed as standard for M-16s in the 12th catalog, 1959. When the 14th catalog was printed (no 13th) in 1961, stainless steel was the standard for M-16 though a non-stainless blade was an option (see catalog entry below). Blades were not marked by "SS" until 1963. There is a way to test a blade to see if it is stainless.



This Model-16 has a "B" sheath that looks to have a "Randall Made; Orlando Fla." stamp on the front (need better, higher resolution picture). If so, and considering the orientation that the stamp appears to have, it is probably a Heiser (HKL) sheath made between 1959 and 1963. This is not a sure thing because "B" sheath stamp orientation is not a fully researched issue as yet.

The knife itself is apparently an early example of M-16, has a "type-1" blade stamp that was used from late-'50s until early 1966. I cannot comment on the apparent lack of a "choll" on this knife. Most of the M-16s I've seen had that feature. To me, this one is pretty unusual in that regard though I understand that Wickersham mentioned some M-16s without choll on a chat board post some years ago.

I echo Ron that this is one of the more valuable collectable Randall knives. I'll take a wild stab at value and guess in an auction it could bring... well ... say ... $4,000-6,000 (?) but it is a market dependent item, value can fluctuate rather widely. If you could document the knife being carried in Vietnam, or even its (initials R.A.P.) owner's military record, it could increase the value to collectors.

Having initials on the guard is sometimes an indication of knife use in Vietnam or overseas-Asia. Clean pantograph engraving was available on every street corner in Vietnam, but you had to find a jewelry shop in the U.S to have it done. I tend to view non-shop engraving as a POSSIBLE marker for overseas carry. (note: crude numbers and initials could be done by the owner, but they are usually obviously hand-made.)

Last edited by Jacknola; 08-12-2016 at 04:32 PM.
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  #5  
Old 08-12-2016, 03:05 PM
iandev iandev is offline
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Thanks for all the information.

I am finding out the owner of this knife (R.A.P) was in the Korean war not the Vietnam war and most likely purchased this knife in 1960.
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  #6  
Old 08-12-2016, 03:24 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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Where did the rest of the pictures go?
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  #7  
Old 08-12-2016, 03:29 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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The original post with pictures disappeared. Could you re-post them? Also higher res pictures including front and back of sheath would be helpful. 1960 seems to be right... Ron nailed it...but then again he is good.

Incidentally, this is a "B" sheath. At some point in the 1960s I think Randall began supplying a special sheath with M-16s, no hone pocket, something like a "B", but with belt loop like an "A" and a tie down toe piece like a"C," maybe even throat rivets on some (?) I don't think it was ever pictured in the catalog however, just referenced.

Here is the only picture you originally posted that I saved...


Last edited by Jacknola; 08-12-2016 at 11:12 PM.
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  #8  
Old 08-12-2016, 04:25 PM
iandev iandev is offline
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I am not sure what happened to the original. I tried to edit it and it just disappeared when I saved. I will repost with better pictures when I get back home in an hour.

Edit: I've tried posting a bunch of times with additional images but the posts don't ever make it into the thread. I am hoping those replies just need moderator approval and they will show up eventually.

Last edited by iandev; 08-13-2016 at 06:03 AM.
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  #9  
Old 08-12-2016, 07:53 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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Great knife which is worth a serious dollar!
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  #10  
Old 08-13-2016, 06:49 AM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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Ian and I have found out that we live in the same city! I'm looking forward to checking this out in person this weekend!
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  #11  
Old 08-14-2016, 01:20 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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I saw it listed on E-bay yesterday, gone today (?). In general, say +/- 500, what did it go for? Gosh, our help was good and we collectors like to keep up with going rates of collectibles. It would be nice to know the range it sold for, if it was sold. Bill did you get it?
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  #12  
Old 08-14-2016, 01:38 PM
iandev iandev is offline
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It has not been sold.
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  #13  
Old 08-28-2016, 09:53 PM
jahn jahn is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacknola View Post
I saw it listed on E-bay yesterday, gone today (?). In general, say +/- 500, what did it go for? Gosh, our help was good and we collectors like to keep up with going rates of collectibles. It would be nice to know the range it sold for, if it was sold. Bill did you get it?
This knife was sold to a collector on, August 18th,2016 at the Randall Museum in Orlando
by me and my son Ian for $3800.00 I had mixed feelings selling it, because it was handed down to me, and i owned
it for almost 45 years!
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  #14  
Old 08-30-2016, 01:52 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Thank you for sharing that information, not all people would be so kind. Your knife will be in good hands, and you received a fair price for your stewardship of it. Sharing this will help us collectors keep up with current market value even if a private transaction. I understand your concern about parting with it, but all material things move on according to their own timetable.

Thanks and regards.

PS: We all gain something reviewing other people's vintage knives. It promotes looking closely at knife features from the era that would otherwise remain unexamined. Thanks for posting these knives.

Last edited by Jacknola; 08-30-2016 at 04:01 PM.
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