Not to open a can of worms, but...

[Andrew Garrett]

I was just reading this old thread, http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/sh...insaw+damascus

Wow! I had no idea that there was such a HUGE controversy over grind types. I had read that some of the big name forgers don't like hollow grinding, but I was unsure why. I just figured that they chose not to hollow grind, because they didn't want anyone to mistake their hand forged knife for a stock removal piece. "My bad!"

I like all grind types for different reasons. I find hollow grinding to be the 'go-to' choice for me. A customer of mine put it best, "When I see a hollow grind, I think of..., precision."

For a large blade, only a flat grind would look right (unless your using 3/8" stock and a 36" contact wheel)

Not trying to stir it up..., just pointing this out to the other novices who may not have read the well informed expert opinions expessed in this old thread.

[Brett Holmes]

my go to guy is the flat grind for one simple reason........ I dont have a large contact wheel. i think all grinds have there advantages and disadvantages, but personallly i like the look of a hollow grind the best, accept on big blades like you said.

although even if i had a large contact wheel i would still do allot of flat grind because on certain knives it looks better and there is also all those other factors.

you plannin on trying your hand at chain damascus andrew?

brett

[Andrew Garrett]

Not quite yet. I was doing some research for some pics of knives using chainsaw damascus so I could bribe Matt Walker into making me some. This thread popped up and demanded to be read.

[dmarx]

Hey Andy,

Just read through the entire thread. Things haven't changed much in 25 years except the speed of the battle. There was an ongoing feud between Loveless and Moran way back when that had exactly the same arguments. Hollow grinding versus flat versus convex; forging versus stock removal; differences in steel types used; etc. Amazing!

Dave

[Andrew Garrett]

Yea, I tell ya'..., it's an intimidating thing to come into a pursuit where there are such diverse opinions on the best way to do things. It can really be overwhelming.

When I first found my way to TKN two years ago, there was a lengthy thread going on where Tracy and Steve had taken on the not inconsiderable task of doing some very imaginative and very relevant testing on every major adhesive used in knifemaking. It was a blast to follow and showed some very consistent results which confirmed that they were using a sound scientific method. Perhaps someone should do the same with this age-old debate.

Pester a few experts--a couple who are recognized stock removal guys who are at the top of their game and a couple smiths who are also at the head of the class--and design some testing methods to determine once and for all which grind type is superior for the various different cutting tasks, which is tougher under every imaginable kind of stress, and whether a forged blade has any measurable advantage over a stock removal blade in any way. If so, what is it?

I've read in Goddard's works that a forged blade is, hands-down, a better blade if all other things are equal..., and I have no reason not to believe that. However, I've never seen the testing, read about what methods were used, etc., etc. I know the theory--I've had it explained and it makes sense to me, but I've never seen a stock removal knife fail in such a way that would suggest that if it had been forged, it would not have failed.

Ed Caffrey and Jay Fisher had very different opinions and, only from what they wrote mind you, I would say that each is pretty entrenched in his respective opinion. At least, that was the impression I got.

As a second year maker, I'm, of course, very interested in such debates. I'm at the cusp of my entry into forging and I want to understand this, but who has the time and money it takes to do all this testing one's self.

We need a wealthy knife enthusiast to fund a lengthy and very complete testing period with repeatable results which could be published in full. Heck, we could get Uncle Sam to pony up I bet! The government has funded studies on such 'left-field' topics as the size of flight-attendants' noses and the effect it has on passengers' comfort and the effect of cow-flatulence on the ozone layer (discovered to be a leading contributor to greenhouse gas build-up BTW).

As it stands now, I find myself wanting to keep an open mind, but still being pulled one way or the other by either the arguments presented, or the personalities behind them. I suppose this is natural. For example, I believe that forging produces a superior knife. Yet, I don't think it's enough of an advantage to make any difference to even the most extreme knife user. I'm certain I'm wrong on one or both points, but that's what I believe today, based on what I know right now. For another example, I believe a hollow grind makes a superior cutting tool and at least as tough a knife when all other things are equal. I point to the arch in architecture as an example. An arch is the strongest shape in architecture for distributing a load. In my mind, that means that lateral stresses on a knife are better handled by a properly done hollow (or convex) grind than by a flat grind. ...never tested it, never heard anybody say that, but I still believe it. I'm sure I'm making myself out to be an idiot here, but that's the mind of a fairly inexperienced maker at work.

What I'm trying to illustrate is the need for diffinative testing which can be shared with everyone. I have TONS of respect for Ed's many years of experience as well as Jay's. I'm sure they are both honest and I am a huge fan and humble student. Moreover, they could BOTH be right on a great many points, but it falls within the power of those who truly want to know, to conduct scientific tests, to the satisfaction of almost everyone, except the VERY hard-headed. We can answer these questions. Someone should.

In the 80's I was a teenager. Martial arts movies were huge, and everyone had an opinion on which style was the best. Who could whip who in a real, no-holds-barred throw-down? In the early 90's, the UFC came along and answered that question. It turned out that everybody had a piece of the answer. The guy who won, could do it all with proficiency. I wonder if that's the way to embrace knifemaking... do it all.

Sorry for the book. Just a long night of thought about that which I've truly come to love.

[Ed Fowler]

dmarx: I would be very interested in reading the debate between Moran and Loveless if you can site a reference I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks

I did some simple tests comparing a flat grind vs hollow vs mild convex and heavy convex grinds. Strength was greatest in heavy conves, next came mild convex, but not by much, then flat and hollow was last in resistance to bending.

[Drac]

I'm kind of an application guy myself. I have found that the best place for a grind depends on its use. If you are making a straight razor I?d be amazed if you could get the great results with a convex grind. By the same token I'd be very hesitant to make a camp bowie using a hollow grind.

As for grinding vs. pounding, form what I've read, forged knives are better quality hands down, but stainless has it's application (fillet knives & salt water come to mind) and there are very few people who forge stainless.

I do wonder though does anyone ever take their knives to the extremes that they would noticed the difference between a well done, properly heat treated ground knife and one that has been forged, again with proper technique and heat treat?

I started using S30V several years ago because of it being better steel, not super steel, just better. I stayed with it not because it was so much tougher that 440C or ATS34 but because of the edge retention it had. None of my knives have come back broke, yet, so I'm not sure if going after the toughest steel that can take a tank apart is a good reason for choosing it.

Back to the question will people notice the difference in a forged blade? I am not trying to bash forging nor asking others to stir up an argument against them. Even if it wasn't a better blade forging has many advantages. Forging lets you use your steel more efficiently. I have to use 2 inch wide steel to make a 1" wide fillet due to the trail point, large amounts of waste. You can make your own patterns in damascus when you forge; I have to settle for what I can buy. Damascus looks it's best when forged to shape, again I have to settle for what I get.

And most of all people enjoy it!!!!! That is more than enough reason to do it to me, not that they need my approval.

Jim

[dmarx]

Hey Ed,

If my memory serves me right, (bad case of CRS) most of the arguments were alluded to in letters to the editor in American Blade magazine. (I think a lot happened at Guild meetings that wasn't chronicled) Bob Loveless was an editor for a short time and he had some controversial writings about blade steels and forging versus stock removal. (he never pulled many punches) I have a bunch of old (volume 1, 2, 3) mag's I'll look through and see what I can find; maybe scan into pdf and post. I also remember that Hibbon got into it; he tried forging for a year, sent out blades to be tested, and no one proved the superior one way or another, so he stopped forging. (I think that was a recent article) I'll look for that too.

What your testing results show makes perfect sense. The heavier meat of convex should make for a stronger blade under lateral force. The thinner blades of hollow grind and flat grind should be the weaker. I'm of the opinion (not that it means much) that each one has it's strengths, weaknesses, and is best for it's intended use. A camp knife used for chopping etc. should be convex. A Bowie just has to have a flat grind, just because. A good caping or skinning blade can be either flat or hollow. An art knife can be any of the above. I think knifemakers settle into what they're good at and decide that's the best way to do it. Some are stubborn and decide that it's the ONLY way to do it. (not me, I haven't figured out how to do anything yet)

This whole series of arguments always reminded me of the age-old philosophical argument about what's better, a blonde, brunette, or redhead. (the one with the nicer butt of course)

Dave

[Drac]

There is a lot to say about finding a style, steel, grind, etc, and sticking to it. By consecrating you will get better at your chosen item. I've had a couple makers caution me when I was trying several different steels that I really need to considerate on one or two to learn their properties so I can get the most out of them. I do stick to S30V & CPM154 for the most part. That makes sense to a point in that I should get better but it does lend itself to not trying something new or to start suffering from hardening of the attitude.

We don't see much of that around here but I see it else where and here it screamed at the shows.

By the way, as was brought up in the above thread, weren?t most western grinds done on so large of stones that have very little difference from a flat grind?

Jim

[TexasJack]

I think Jim had a pretty good observation about the grind being appropriate to the application. As I recall, with respect to the TKN discussions, there were a few who were "entrenched" and nothing else was acceptable beyond what they used. (I don't think Ed C. was one of them.) Most people just described the grind they favor and why.

There is no one steel, one grind, one size, or one design that makes a perfect knife for all uses. We should all recognize this as a good thing, for that's why we have the variety of knives (and discussions!) that we see on TKN. As Mark Twain said, "It is a difference of opinion that makes a horse race."

[azmike]

I too have been at this less than 2 yrs, but for me the decision between stock removal/forging did not come into play. I worked as a grinder operator (manual and auto) in the Pontiac Motors foundry for several years---didn't like it much, and besides there was no "fire" involved. mike

[Ed Caffrey]

I went back and read through that old thread. It's all in what an individual does within their own shop. One of the things that struck me when a re-read that thread was how much ego and chest thumping was going on with certain individuals. We're always going to have differing opinions on what's best, but what we have to remember is that each of us must obtain the knowledge and reasoning for our opinions through our own research. The opinions I expressed in the older thread still hold true for me.

Something that I did not express in the older thread is the way a "semi-hollow" ground knife feels to me versus a finely ground convex blade....... "clunky" is the only word that comes to my mind, especially if your talking about a Bowie sized knife. I personally think that the words of Wayne Goddard are ones to live by for any knifemaker.....

"A custom knife should have three attributes"....

Look good
Feel good
Work good

Those are words or wisdom, that transcend time for any knifemaker.

If you can embody all of those attributes into your work, then you ahead of the game, and on the right track.

Each individual MUST constantly evaluate their work, MUST constantly seek improvement, and above all, MUST be honest with themselves about the current state of their offerings. Those are the things that drive you to higher levels.

There's a huge difference between stating an opinion based on confidence that has been achieved through testing, versus an opinion that comes from having made a lot of knives, or because someone else says so. Over the years I have been repeatedly surprised by the number of Makers out there whom I've heard claim that this or that is the best, only to find that they have NEVER tested anything......just spoke the words based on a theory or because someone else stated it.

I'm not sure if Ed F. knows just how much of an impact he had on me, early in my knifemaking career.....the words he spoke about testing and comparisons has stuck with me through all these years. I doubt I will ever be able to say that I've done as much experimenting and testing as he, but he did instill those values to me, right when I needed them, and through the years, the words of both he and Wayne have retained a great deal value for me.

The moral of this story is: If it works well for you, then so be it, but do not discount others opinions until you have tried it. Differences of opinion should not be taken as personal attacks, but rather should engender thought and if the opinions are sound, they will only propel you to achieve great things.

[AwP]

I already gave my opinion on grinds in the linked thread, so I won't go into that again except to say one thing. Whichever you might concider best for general purpose, the others do have their place even if you personally don't make knives that fill that place.

Now for the grinding vs forging. Way back in the day, before modern mill methods, forged was vastly superior because cast steels tend to have voids and inclusions (bloom steels too, but it's not concievable to be able to use those without forging it first). Nowadays the mills roll the steel, so any steel you buy has been "forged" and the problems with cast steel are avoided. So I think a ground knife made into an identical copy of a forged knife including HT, will be equal in quality. Drac makes a good point that forging allows more efficient use of materials, and certain difficult shapes. Stock removal allows other shapes that would be difficult to forge though, so that point is a little moot. Other then making your own damascus, I don't think forging is superior, just more fun.

[Drac]

Good points. I hadn't considered that there might be pieces that can't be forged to shape. I thought it was just limited by the skill of the smith. I also hadn't thought of the of pre-milled steels, I was thinking more along the lines of the thermal cycling that refines the grain that you don't get while grinding.

Thanks Ed. Your actually one of the reasons I'm trying to grind some 1095 for the kitchen KITH up above. I figure if you'll try stainless I can give carbon a try

Honestly your always saying people should push themselves and learn made me want to try things outside my comfort zone.

Jim

[fitzo]

There are very few "absolutes" in knifemaking. Exceptions can be found to nearly everything claimed as "best".

Though there may often be a preferred path to a specific goal, there is no single path that leads to all goals.

It behooves the new knifemaker to not totally buy into someone elses opinions too quickly, for those opinions are often far more narrowminded or self-serving than is immediately obvious. Keep an open mind lest you limit yourself.