The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need. |
02-23-2015, 06:59 PM
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Steel Addict
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Join Date: Aug 2014
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Why is 1080 so hard to find right now?
After the feedback from my earlier post, I started hunting down 1080 flat bar 1 1/2 inch by 3/8 inch thick. I also researched the heat treating and see why it was so highly recommended. Looks like after I quench I just pop it in the oven at 400 for an hour or two. Either way, I've been searching online all day and everyone is either sold out or doesn't offer it. I can't find the sticky with the where to buy on here which is probably my fault. Guidance?
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02-23-2015, 07:24 PM
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Skilled
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Northern Alabama
Posts: 396
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You sure you were recommended 3/8"? that is really really thick. You probably won't need anything more than 5/32 or 1/8.
If you want 1 ft of 1080 limited to 1/8 inch:
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/produ...oducts_id=3520
I've ordered from them before and they're good. I checked new jersey steel baron too but unfortunately he's out.
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-Hunter
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02-23-2015, 07:34 PM
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Yeah, what's with the 3/8? If you plan to make those small knives I suggested - and I hope that's one piece of advice you will follow - there's no need for 3/8". Maybe that was a misprint.
Anyway, Hunter says texasknife has some and I just now looked at usaknifemakers.com and they have 1080 in 1/8, 3/16, and 1/4 bars. That's all you need.
As for not finding that Sticky, its at the top of the Newbies forum and the thread is titled Finding 1080 or 1084...
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02-23-2015, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Rogers
Yeah, what's with the 3/8? If you plan to make those small knives I suggested - and I hope that's one piece of advice you will follow - there's no need for 3/8". Maybe that was a misprint.
Anyway, Hunter says texasknife has some and I just now looked at usaknifemakers.com and they have 1080 in 1/8, 3/16, and 1/4 bars. That's all you need.
As for not finding that Sticky, its at the top of the Newbies forum and the thread is titled Finding 1080 or 1084...
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Both of you are right. The link was good, I'm trying to order now. I jacked my numbers up, which is a common problem for me. It was 1/8.
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02-23-2015, 08:04 PM
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I just ordered 3 feet of the 1/8 inch 1080. Thank you SO MUCH for your help. Simple problems like that trip me up pretty badly until I've been through it enough times to get the behavior mapped out in my head. I WILL be taking the advice to stick with smaller knives and keep it at 8 inches or so. How long should the handle be on that? I'm thinking 4 inches?
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02-23-2015, 08:29 PM
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A 'smaller' knife is one with a 4" blade, not an 8" blade. Of course, an 8" blade is smaller than a 12" bowie but that isn't the point. The point is to be able to forge, grind, and heat treat, and test in a rapid and economical cycle. If you can't get a clean grind on a 4" blade you sure as heck can't do it on an 8" blade.
Keep it small for now. You aren't likely to make just one more knife and have it just right, you may have to make a dozen. In fact, even if the next knife does have a perfect heat treatment it really won't prove anything until you have done it successfully a dozen times. Once could be luck.
After you get the quench done, hopefully correctly (got some canola oil?), then you temper the blade. You will have to try different temperatures and test the results of each one. Start at 400 F and go up by 25 degrees with each test. Temper at least once for a full hour, most guys will then let the blade cool to room temp and then repeat the temper process. Somewhere between 400 and 450 (probably) you'll find a result that suits you. No one can tell you exactly what will work because it varies a little according to the exact steel you're using (and different batches of the same steel can vary), your quench oil and its temperature, the exact temp you quench at which will depend on your skill with that magnet, and how well regulated and accurate your tempering oven may be. BTW, you won't be tempering in your forge, you need precise temperature control for this so most guys buy a cheap toaster oven for tempering. Small knives fit easily in a toaster oven, most big knives do not.
A generic knife handle is usually 4 to 5" long. We make our own knives because we are dis-satisfied with the generic product. That means you make your knife handles to fit the hand of the intended user. For the first dozen knives that should mean mostly you. The reason for that is that the blade is not the only important part of the knife. When you go and test that knife as you have been instructed you will quickly find out if your handle design bites the big one or not. The blisters and possibly blood on your hand, the slippery grip, the fatigue, all will explain that pretty clearly - another reason you will be making a dozen or more before selling any (if you're smart)....
Last edited by Ray Rogers; 02-23-2015 at 08:35 PM.
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02-23-2015, 08:41 PM
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Steel Addict
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Rogers
A 'smaller' knife is one with a 4" blade, not an 8" blade. Of course, an 8" blade is smaller than a 12" bowie but that isn't the point. The point is to be able to forge, grind, and heat treat, and test in a rapid and economical cycle. If you can't get a clean grind on a 4" blade you sure as heck can't do it on an 8" blade.
Keep it small for now. You aren't likely to make just one more knife and have it just right, you may have to make a dozen. In fact, even if the next knife does have a perfect heat treatment it really won't prove anything until you have done it successfully a dozen times. Once could be luck.
After you get the quench done, hopefully correctly (got some canola oil?), then you temper the blade. You will have to try different temperatures and test the results of each one. Start at 400 F and go up by 25 degrees with each test. Temper at least once for a full hour, most guys will then let the blade cool to room temp and then repeat the temper process. Somewhere between 400 and 450 (probably) you'll find a result that suits you. No one can tell you exactly what will work because it varies a little according to the exact steel you're using (and different batches of the same steel can vary), your quench oil and its temperature, the exact temp you quench at which will depend on your skill with that magnet, and how well regulated and accurate your tempering oven may be. BTW, you won't be tempering in your forge, you need precise temperature control for this so most guys buy a cheap toaster oven for tempering. Small knives fit easily in a toaster oven, most big knives do not.
A generic knife handle is usually 4 to 5" long. We make our own knives because we are dis-satisfied with the generic product. That means you make your knife handles to fit the hand of the intended user. For the first dozen knives that should mean mostly you. The reason for that is that the blade is not the only important part of the knife. When you go and test that knife as you have been instructed you will quickly find out if your handle design bites the big one or not. The blisters and possibly blood on your hand, the slippery grip, the fatigue, all will explain that pretty clearly - another reason you will be making a dozen or more before selling any (if you're smart)....
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I should have been more clear. I thought we were discussing 8 inches as the total overall length. I was expecting about 4 inches of blade and 4 inches of handle. I do plan on running a few of these before turning anything for sale loose. I have other stuff I am more familiar with to sell while I go through that process. Can I assume that arou d 4-5 inches of blade and a handle I can live with is where I need to start?
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02-23-2015, 09:06 PM
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Sounds about right to me. BTW, over the years you will spend making and selling knives you are likely to find that knives with blades of 4 or 5 inches will far out sell bowies and other large knives. Some guys are exceptions to that simply because they choose to make only large knives but, for most of us, smaller knives sell better and for almost as much money as the larger ones....
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02-23-2015, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Rogers
Sounds about right to me. BTW, over the years you will spend making and selling knives you are likely to find that knives with blades of 4 or 5 inches will far out sell bowies and other large knives. Some guys are exceptions to that simply because they choose to make only large knives but, for most of us, smaller knives sell better and for almost as much money as the larger ones....
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I know you're right about that. I'm still kid-in-a-candy-shop right now trying to clean up some of the knives I promised I'd make myself before I died. The Bowie and the Kukri being on the top of the list. I also have a modified Kukri planned. Honestly every professional knife maker had tables FULL of 8 inch-ish overall length knives running $90-$200 and not much of anything else I've seen. I assumed there was a reason for that.
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02-24-2015, 05:37 AM
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Skilled
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Alabama
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Someone mentioned forging. If you are working with materials less than 1/4 there is no reason to forge the blade. It adds nothing but time and will likely only ruin what you are doing. Work on the heat treat first, that's the soul of the blade. After that you'll need to get the profile and geometry right. Looking forward to seeing your progress.
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02-24-2015, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmccustomknives
Someone mentioned forging. If you are working with materials less than 1/4 there is no reason to forge the blade. It adds nothing but time and will likely only ruin what you are doing. Work on the heat treat first, that's the soul of the blade. After that you'll need to get the profile and geometry right. Looking forward to seeing your progress.
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I got the flat stock for the stock removal blades. I'm working on learning both forging and stock removal since I was in a position to invest in equipment for both. The 1080 will be for stock removal. Right now I mostly plan on forging railroad spikes and leaf springs because those are easy and I know them well enough to feel comfortable. I will be posting my progress as it happens. So far my last two threads have given me more useful information than almost all of my other questions combined.
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02-24-2015, 09:10 AM
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QUOTE: I'm still kid-in-a-candy-shop right now
Believe me, we recognize that! We all go through that phase.
Forging railroad spikes is fun and there are even some people who collect spike knives. But, as a practical matter, the steel in a railroad spike is quite mild and not really knife worthy. So, spikes are good for letter openers and curio knives but that's about all.
Leaf springs are usually good quality steel with heavy truck springs being likely to be superior to car springs. Leaf springs have their own problems though in that their previous life can leave them with stress cracks. This can lead to problems in the finished blade. There's really no reason I can think of except for cost - which you do not seem bound by - why you would buy good steel for stock removal but choose to use questionable steel for forging. As James said earlier, the soul of the blade is the heat treatment. The first step in getting the best possible heat treatment is to know what steel you are using...
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02-24-2015, 10:05 AM
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Steel Addict
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Join Date: Aug 2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Rogers
QUOTE: I'm still kid-in-a-candy-shop right now
Believe me, we recognize that! We all go through that phase.
Forging railroad spikes is fun and there are even some people who collect spike knives. But, as a practical matter, the steel in a railroad spike is quite mild and not really knife worthy. So, spikes are good for letter openers and curio knives but that's about all.
Leaf springs are usually good quality steel with heavy truck springs being likely to be superior to car springs. Leaf springs have their own problems though in that their previous life can leave them with stress cracks. This can lead to problems in the finished blade. There's really no reason I can think of except for cost - which you do not seem bound by - why you would buy good steel for stock removal but choose to use questionable steel for forging. As James said earlier, the soul of the blade is the heat treatment. The first step in getting the best possible heat treatment is to know what steel you are using...
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I AM somewhat limited by cost, made a pretty large investment in equipment and lack reliable income right now, life got weird. I already know the limits of the spikes, they will be sold as curios and ornamental stuff, NOT billed as hardcore knives. Leaf springs are a little hard for me to come by this second and I'm not as heavily focuse on them. I'm gonna have to make a junkyard run soon. So far I've loved everything I've made out of leaf springs. I also happen to live where years of turning pens and bowls has left behind a shop overrun with scales to work with and tools to do all the scales I could want. I ordered the 1080 because I can't get very far not listening to guys like you offering easy to follow advice that I can implement, the cost still hurt quite a bit.
Last edited by AllanBeasley; 02-24-2015 at 10:08 AM.
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02-25-2015, 04:22 AM
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Skilled
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmccustomknives
Someone mentioned forging. If you are working with materials less than 1/4 there is no reason to forge the blade. It adds nothing but time and will likely only ruin what you are doing. Work on the heat treat first, that's the soul of the blade. After that you'll need to get the profile and geometry right. Looking forward to seeing your progress.
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I have to disagree with one statement, I forge steel as thin as 1/8" on a regular basis with no problem... however, for someone who has little or no forging experience, I'd suggest to them 3/16" or 1/4" as a minimum thickness. I agree 100% with the rest of your post...
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A good friend told me one time about forging "What is there not to like, you get to break all the rules you were told as a kid, don't play with that it is sharp, don't play with fire, and don't beat on that"
Wade Holloway
See some of my work.
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02-25-2015, 05:39 AM
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Skilled
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Join Date: Mar 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GHEzell
I have to disagree with one statement, I forge steel as thin as 1/8" on a regular basis with no problem... however, for someone who has little or no forging experience, I'd suggest to them 3/16" or 1/4" as a minimum thickness. I agree 100% with the rest of your post...
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I still don't get why anyone would bother forging 1/8 material. You reduce the edge by 1/2, giving an edge thickness of 1/16 to account for decarb. You might add 3/16 to the width of the blade, but after you remove the hammer marks which for most will be 1/16" on both sides, everything that has been done is completely lost plus all the wasted time and material. While even I will heat and conform a billet for special shapes that the billet doesn't fit, that isn't exactly forging. If one has hammer control to do it, why not. For me, it's just a waste of time to try.
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1084, advice, art, bee, blade, bowie, common, flat, forge, handle, heat, heat treat, help., hunter, hunting, knife, knives, make, post, problem, products, simple, small, steel |
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