A thought on the nature of these arts...

[Andrew Garrett]

I've been reading about scrimshaw and engraving for some time. I'd like to try my hand at these arts and see if I have anything to offer. However, I am just a bit discouraged...

Without trying to start an uproar, I just want to ask a fundamental question about where these two arts are now in terms of what is considered good and valid work.

In reading some recent posts, and in recalling some from the past, there seems to be a general view that there is only one correct way to do things. It appears that the range of what is considered good and desirable work, is so narrow, that if each artist complies with these expections, all the art produced looks like it was done by the same person!

In my other work, tattoos, the same is true. I avoid traditional japanese style art, because if it doesn't look exactly like the overwhelming majority of asian ink out there, it's considered crap. People take one look, and pass judgemnet based on whether or not it looks like Ami James' work.

Art is any form of expression which elicits an emotional response. That's pretty broad, but it seems that in these two fields (among others), as of late, 'broad' is not the governing philosophy. Scroll work is so overwhelmingly dominate in engraving that I sigh in relief when a daring artist posts something celtic. I do credit Jay Fisher with bucking the trend on a regular basis.

Likewise, scrim is being judged in terms of 'each hair on the animal is not articulated'. Why can't someone do some impressionist work in this medium? Even some random geometry would be a breath of fresh air.

Sure, art needs flow and continuity in the composition, and any style can be scrutinized in these areas. However, the style itself shouldn't be looked down upon because it's not 'ultra realistic', or 'life-like'.

On second thought, all great art is controversial, and the greatest art is thought by many to be nothing close to art at all.

Just food for thought to open FRIENDLY debate. Don't flame me too hard.

[chris moore]

i agree with all that, i want my work and even each knife to be unique. i dont think there is only one right way to do things. some people like certain kinds of music others dont like that music, it's a matter of opinion, people should do what THEY like and not care about following a pattern

[chiger]

Don't make me come up there young man! Ami James rules!

Just kidding Andy. Ami and the rest of those guys are artist, but the true masters of the form who were trained in the traditional method might not be all that pleased with his work. They'd marvel at his skill/talent with a gun and then pick it apart. But they'd probably never say anything to his face.

You are right. On some level scrimshaw and engraving is kind of like that. Some of the stuff, scrim more than engraving, I saw 40 years ago is simple by todays standards and state of the art for the day. Advances in tools, access to inspirational examples and to training advances the form. From cave paintings to Rembrandt. It's natural.

I like subtle and primitive too though. I think that I enjoy some of the less sophisticated stuff just as much as the realistic. Not just because it's my style. As long as art does what it's suppose to do, I like it. Don't give me a single line old west scene on the handles of a Colt Buntline and put a Picasso style horse in it. But that's just me...I'm gonna think its silly.

I have no jealousy for other artist. Maybe a little envy, but I want to like their art. And I will like it as long as it is honest. I can always find something positive in an honest effort. Just don't jerk my chain.

Art is about fooling the minds eye into seeing the wisdom of your vision, not poking your finger in it till it bleeds.

chiger,

[vilts]

Great thread, Andrew. I've wondered about the state of engraving myself.

Being only a very beginner, just one year of engraving under the belt, I'm already starting to get bored with 'regular' scrollwork engraving, every time there's something new and innovative it makes my day. That is also the reason why I admire Amayak Stepanyan's work so much. Just totally different from the regular stuff. Art Deco engraving, where have seen that before?

There's also other side of the story. Very often your creativity is tested to the max by creating your art within certain set of rules. If customers want English scroll, then you have to give it to them. Now try to make that look original - simple scroll, engraved million and one times.

In 14th century there was a famous Russian iconographer Andrei Rublev and he was famous just because of that. He could create original art within very rigid rules of iconography.

But I still believe that when you develop your own style it'll pay back thousandfold in the future. Everybody can copy others work and style, even I.

Viljo

[biggles]

Hi Andrew

I understand what you are saying but I respectfully disagree with you.

It?s a bit like looking at a parking lot full of cars. There is everything there from a clapped out Lada to a Rolls Royce. They all look similar in the sense that they have 4 wheels and a car like body??????but that?s about it. When you start examining each car individually then you start noticing the differences. You could also apply that same philosophy to knives; after all, they are only a blade and a handle so how many do you have to see to be bored with looking at them?

The same is true with engraving. At a casual glance a lot of it does look the same. It?s when you really start looking at it that you start seeing the infinite varieties of scroll, leaf and animal life. Scroll work and Acanthus leaf is one of those design mediums that is timeless in its structure and looks good no matter what century it?s been created in because of its intrinsic connection to nature and organic life. Scroll work has also stood the test of time.

Scroll and leaf provide a continuity of design that allows work to flow like a thread through fabric and is very susceptible to allowing other elements to come and go without breaking the rhythm of the design. Indeed scroll and leaf is often enhanced by these outside elements. What separates the good from the bad is the finesse and subtlety of the engraver in technique and design.

Once you start going away from some of those tried and tested design principals you start getting into trouble. You start entering the world of trends and what looks great today runs the risk of looking terrible tomorrow (Just think of 80?s clothing and haircuts!!!) Certain types of designs suit certain structures and canvases.

I?ve never struck anyone that has said to me that this is the only way to do something. In fact most engravers go to great lengths to say that there are several ways to achieve the same thing and encourage experiments in creativity. However I have been gently guided in the direction of what looks good and what doesn?t and the principals of good engraving design. I?ve never felt hindered by any of this. In fact quite the opposite has happened. By learning the basics of good engraving design has empowered me and given the confidence and skills to reach out and experiment with my own creative designs.

At the end of the day beauty is in the eye of the beholder and we all have the right to artistically create whatever we like without fear of criticism from others. Weather or not anyone else likes, or will pay, for what we create is always going to be the subject of debate. Good design is timeless and will continue to be regenerated for centuries.

It?s an interesting subject you have raised.

Cheers
Andrew Biggs

[Andrew Garrett]

Ahh..., civility...

It's nice to know you can question the establishment without making people angry. It's good to be among such refinement. Thank you.

Chiger,
Your last line is very keen indeed (yes, people you should scroll up and read it agian). May I use that?

Andrew,
First, great name sir.
You make a very good argument and it forces me to take another look at my point of view. Yes, I too want to avoid trends. As a person with a passion for history, the tried and true is not lost on me. However, I clearly have not developed your 'eye' for the finer points of scroll and leaf. Don't get me wrong, there is much of it I enjoy, and my particular artistic 'hot button' is lines and flow. It's the first thing anyone sees in any piece of visual art in any style and in any medium. Line is the universal binding force which governs all such pursuits.

I know good scroll composition when I see it. I may not recognize the fine subtleties as a seasoned engraver would, but that's to be expected. My concern is the expectation that all engravers must practice this style to be recognized.

I agree, that the long history of this style is strong medicine which demands that the style be honored. No problem there. There is also the aspect you just lightly aluded to in you reply..., sales. Scroll work is the 'best seller' for the engraving arts. I can't argue with that either. I'd just like to see broader ranges of styles and subject matter. The possibilities are endless, but so little is realized.

I also agree that certain styles look good in certain mediums. The organic nature of scroll and leaf adds contrast to the mechanical nature of knives and especially guns. Yet, my knives are more 'organic' than most in their concept. I make them to look and feel as though they grew in the hand. For contrast on my blades, I may have to go the other way.

For now, I'm focusing on scrim, but I was watching an engraver (missed his name) work at the Blade show, and I was intoxicated. It's next on the list.

I guess I just have to find my own niche, because I'm not sure the conservative approach is going to be my bag. Maybe I won't sell anything, but hey, it's just a hobby. I get my pleasure from the creative release, not sales. I used to want to do this full time, but these days..., I know better! God forbid.

Thanks for the great replys from both sides guys. When I do post my work here someday, I look forward to a fine roasting! lol

By the way Andrew, I love the way you add the totems to your scroll work! Very original without abandoning the homefront. Well done and great lines!

[BadKarma]

Andy,

There's an old adage, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". My advice would be create what you like. You can't please everyone all of the time. Myself, I like the unique. Celtic would always get my attention. I never compare one thing to the next. I see each as an individual. Just like they say, remove everything that doesn't look like a knife. The piece you are working on will let you know what it wants.

Creating is something you do because you love it, not because you have too.

I can't wait to see some Celtic Knotwork.

Lee

[chiger]

Andy,

I had to scroll back up and check myself. I spout so much nonsense I wondered what I said that actually made sense. And yes, you can use it as long as I get the royalties. ;~) But, I doubt I was the first guy to think of it.

You and Andrew hit on exactly the point I was trying to make. Don't tell my wife I said this, but she's not that artistic. Great eye for detail though. One of the things I point out to her on occasion is why she says, "I don't like that!" It can be a painting, a Miami Ink tattoo or a room design. The reason is always the same. The artist has betrayed her.

Even if she doesn't know what the form is suppose to look like, her subconscious mind (minds eye) knows what is right! Artist that betray the minds eye betray the art. That's why the classics are classics. I believe we all have a shared subconscious view of the natural world that art springs from. That's how we can see someone's face in cheese toast.

Anyway, just a thought. Unoriginal as it may be.

chiger,

[gravertom]

Originally Posted by vilts

There's also other side of the story. Very often your creativity is tested to the max by creating your art within certain set of rules. If customers want English scroll, then you have to give it to them. Now try to make that look original - simple scroll, engraved million and one times.

But I still believe that when you develop your own style it'll pay back thousandfold in the future. Everybody can copy others work and style, even I.

Viljo

Two great quotes! And I agree with Andrew Biggs also.

beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, in a certain sense, but I think that beauty is most often created succesfully by those who have an eye for beauty.

Contrary to many, perhaps, I do believe that there is an absolute standard of beauty. I also believe that we cannot fully access that standard, and also that there is a lot of room for subjectivity in the APPRECIATION of that beauty, but there is an ultimate beauty, and also an ultimate ugliness, so to speak.

We don't fully undertand how gravity works, but we can recognize it's effects, and even predict and work with those effects. Beauty is less scientifically defined perhaps, but the rules of design are exmaples of the categorization of the rules of beauty, as man has been able to percieve and understand them so far.

To go Tolkienesque here, we are subcreators. We observe, respond, and try to create from what we have seen, known, and experienced. All human art is derivative, to varying degrees.

Some like a coarse finish, some smooth. We would look aghast at someone who "liked" to run their hand over shards of glass.

Some like vanilla, some like chocolate, but we all would be saddened and amazed to see someone who preferred excrement as their flavor for ice cream.

Granted, tastes in art are hard to quantify, but that doesn't mean that it is totally subjective either. Going against the grain will appeal to certain folks, for various reasons. Everyone is indeed free to create as they please. Everyone is free to violate the laws of gravity, also. The consequences may not be as dramatic in art, but there will be some effect, at some point.

Again, Vilts nailed it for me. Take the challenge, work within the rules that exist for the pursuit of beauty, and then put your own creative energies into that. The result will be indeed something very special, and will pay a thousandfold!

take care,
Tom

[biggles]

I don't think there is any particular rule that says you have to engrave scrolls on everything. That's just a matter of personal choice of the artist/creator.

A graver is just like a pencil. You can create whatever you want with it.

There are all sorts of design that look great depending on your cultural background. The Celtic Knot is one example but there is also the geometric Islamic designs from the Middle East and the variouse European styles like Nouveau etc etc. All of them beautiful.

It really boils down to your own personal preferences and tastes and which path you want to follow or create. But the interesting thing is that for any of the above styles to work you still have to learn their basic structures or they will jar the senses and look awful.

Great discussion

Cheers
Andrew Biggs

[gravertom]

More good points Andrew!

There are myriads of styles and concepts out there, and no doubt more to be discovered. I, for one, do not argue that all engraving must have scroll. Engraving is the cutting. Scroll is one type of design that is often cut on certain objects. Any of the concepts Andrew mentioned, if well done, would be welcome to my eyes as an engraved design.

Good discussion indeed!

Tom

[Rick Bowles]

You raise a number of valid questions for which I'm not sure there are any "right" answers. I do have a few thoughts but these are only my opinions and we all know what they say about opinions.
First I believe we should differentiate between art and craft. Scrimshaw, like engraving, knife making or pottery is a craft. The word craft may imply an expertness in workmanship, a facility with the tools and materials of a particular trade. Does this make it art? Art, though subjective at best, has been defined as the conscious combination of skill and creative imagination especially in the creation of aesthetic objects. Take music for example. Virtually anyone can be taught to play the piano. The notes are all there for everyone, combinations form chords and the chart will show you the meter. However, without a musicians ear, a lifetime of lessons won't create a pianist who's instrument is an expressive extension of his soul. You may end up with a fair piano player but little more. What the ear is to the musician, the eye is to the engraver or scrimshander. Anyone can learn to cut metal or scratch ivory. With an artist eye, the desire and ability to continuously improve and an affinity with going hungry you will succeed.
As for styles, do what sells first. This both pays the bills and gets your work out. Once your name and work are established you can do the artsie-fartsie stuff and it too will sell. Your style will develop itself.
Please allow me one last thought. I think a forum such as this, one which clearly has a wealth of talent and experience, should be and can be an excellent sounding board for the novice craftsman. However.... and this may get me thrown under the bus.... you do these folks a huge disservice if you're not straight with them. Finding something ... anything positive to say about someone's work is certainly a polite and genteel response but it doesn't help them improve.
Rick

[gravertom]

Originally Posted by Rick Bowles

Please allow me one last thought. I think a forum such as this, one which clearly has a wealth of talent and experience, should be and can be an excellent sounding board for the novice craftsman. However.... and this may get me thrown under the bus.... you do these folks a huge disservice if you're not straight with them. Finding something ... anything positive to say about someone's work is certainly a polite and genteel response but it doesn't help them improve.
Rick

Rick, I agree with this, but it is a delicate thing to be honest and not cause some hurt. However, the "hurt", if healthy, will do that person, and everyone else, a lot of good. It will do the "art" as whole some good too. If the clientele can't tell the good from the great, those who do great work may not get their due reward.

I am very critical of my own work, and I don't like "bad" engraving, especially my own. It is important to understand the complete context when evaluating wok, but honest constructive criticism is a good thing.

I see some over on Steve Lindsay's board at times, and it usually goes well.

One issue may be the fact that we have a "mixed" audience here. If it were just an artists' "locker room", we might speak more freely, but with potential or actual clients visiting sites like this, we need to be careful not to air the laundry so to speak.

In any case, i do agree with your point.

Tom

[Andrew Garrett]

Rick,
I agree with you for the most part, but not entirely. Specifically in your definitions of art and craft.

If I design knives and hire a craftsman to make them exactly to my specifications, he is a craftsman or technition, but still a knifemaker. Is he therefore, an artist? Not necessarily.

I deal with this all the time. Clients come to me with a tattoo concept and want every detail to be exactly as they dictate or like the picture they brought me. When I have no creative input at all, I have no interest in the work. I may do it anyway, but I very tactfully explain that they have reduced me to being a tattoo technition because they opted not to use the services of a tattoo artist. In these cases, I don't even photograph the work and I refuse any ownership of that design.

I believe that as long as the work is original in part or in full, then the craftsman creating it is indeed, an artist as well (to some degree). Thus, scrim and engraving, like all other forms of visual expression, are indeed art forms.

We're likely splitting hairs and I am straying off point a bit. So, to tie it back to the original discussion, I just have some difficulty finding significant amounts of originality in some of the most common themes found in scrim and engraving. Without the originality, then perhaps it slips from art to craft.

As a mental illustration, If I were to draw a rectangle on a page representing a knife bolster, then compose what I thought was an original design in pure scroll and leaf, I bet I could find an existing piece (looking hard enough) that would make my work look like plagarism. I know I'm not entirely right here, but I don't think I'm entirely wrong either. I'm just trying to get to place that I can feel like there's fresh soil to work in these disciplines without becoming trendy or obscure.

Great discussion.

[chiger]

You know, I seem to remember this story. There was once a great young artist. Struggling as most artist do. But he was called before the king, he though for a commissioned work. It turned out that when he arrived he was asked to audition for the commission. So what did he do? He walked over to a wall and freehand drew a large perfect circle as evidence of his artistry and walked off. I think the guy was famous for painting the ceiling of a chapel or something too.

The point is, that to guys like Micheal Angelo, Rembrandt and most other cutting edge artist of every era, art is as much about craft as creation. Craft is a means to creation right enough, but they saw the greatest artistry in the crafting of the simplest geometric shapes.

I'm not arguing that we should all be doing Celtic Knots or perfectly symmetrical vine and thrones. I am arguing that if you are going to find "fresh soil" as Andy says, you should have an appreciation for the art of the craft. For without craft there is no art! How original your art becomes is totally dependent on how far you can advance you skill as a craftsman.

I like this thread Andy! Makes you think.

chiger,