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  #16  
Old 12-25-2016, 08:46 AM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Kyle, do you mean up and down or side to side when you say back and forth? Up and down=OK, side to side=warp.
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  #17  
Old 12-25-2016, 08:52 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Not convalescence (recovering from an injury or ill health), what you mean is decalescence .

You could be over heating the blade. The pen says the steel is at least 1500 degrees. Unless you are testing repeatedly until the pen indicates 1500 it is possible the blade could be 1700 or 2000 or any temp far above 1500. Still, your results tend to make me think you're getting it about right....


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  #18  
Old 12-25-2016, 03:43 PM
gkyle840 gkyle840 is offline
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Lol.. decalescence. I think I am getting it as close as I am able to without a temp controlled oven. I have a 1600 pen that I used a few times to check to make sure I was not overheating but I can basically judge it by color in the dark and the 1500 pen after doing 20+ test pieces.
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  #19  
Old 12-25-2016, 06:12 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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I recommend that you go by the decalesence, judging it in the dark, than going by a 1500 pen. At that temperature you are just a little under where you need to be and you're not getting complete austenization. I think that I would even check with the 1600 pen and try to catch it at the point at which it just melts then quench. It would take some testing, i.e. broken blades, but 1080 or 80CrV2, whichever you're really using, are euticoid steels which are very forgiving and only need to be heat through. If the 1080 you are using actually has some vanadium in it it will help retard grain growth.


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  #20  
Old 12-25-2016, 08:25 PM
gkyle840 gkyle840 is offline
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Your saying to get the steel up to 1600? I can definitely give that a try. I am using Aldo's 1084 steel. 125 good for quench oil or should I experiment with hotter and cooler oil?

Last edited by gkyle840; 12-25-2016 at 09:17 PM.
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  #21  
Old 12-25-2016, 08:32 PM
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I lost track of what oil your using but if its canola or Parks then about 100 degrees would be proper I think . Be careful not to go past 1600, that should be pretty near the limit for 1084 ...


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  #22  
Old 12-25-2016, 09:21 PM
gkyle840 gkyle840 is offline
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It is indeed canola oil at 125. I will bring the temp down to 100.
I will play with some sample pieces around 1600 as well.
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  #23  
Old 12-26-2016, 12:53 AM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Good luck Kyle and welcome to the world of forge heat treating. LOL

I wished you had access to an oven with controls so you could see each temp's colors. It is how I learned through my job. I HT'd O1 quite often and recognize the color and glow for 1475. Daylight or fluorescent light you get a practiced eye for where you want to be. Keep working and be patient and you will get there. I am trying to think of how my brother put a cheap thermocouple in his forge and hooked it up to a voltmeter and he had a chart that compared the millivolts to the actual temperature. It was inexpensive. Maybe somebody here knows.

Last edited by jimmontg; 12-26-2016 at 01:03 AM.
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  #24  
Old 12-26-2016, 01:24 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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It's not expensive to hook up a pyrometer to a forge. I've purchased reasonably priced units over Ebay. There's not wiring to figure out. All you need to do is pop in the batteries and it's ready to go. Just be sure that the themocouple is rated for as high as you need to operate your forge. Ceramic shielded themocouples aren't that expensive either.

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  #25  
Old 12-26-2016, 04:12 AM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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I am going by years ago, in 2004. Once we had temp control we learned how to control the heat in his big forge/foundry, as we could make it so hot it could melt steel. Scared us.lol A little extra O2 goes a long ways. We had regulators for the propane and O2 and air compressor. He had built a forge more for blacksmithing than knife making. I was more into making knives than he was. Did some awesome blacksmith jobs with that forge and he's still using it.
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  #26  
Old 12-26-2016, 06:48 AM
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Sounds good on that end. 1084 is pretty forgiving, but the problem I've seen with many beginners is in watching the "shadows" move out they tend to not watch the edges and tips (thin parts) over heat causing serious grain growth in those areas. Gets hard for sure but will not retain an edge under reasonable use. Not always obvious without a very close look at the grain pattern near the cutting edge (thinnest area). Good reason not to get too thin in these areas before heat treating if using fire instead of oven.

Not saying this is your problem, just a thing that can cause what you are running into. Might try regrinding the edge back to a more meatier area and redo your final bevels and cutting edge taking care not to over heat the steel. What do you have to lose at this point? Might shed some light on the issue.


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  #27  
Old 12-26-2016, 09:46 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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For what its worth when I used 1084 I also use aldo's (njsteelbarron) so now that I have a even heat oven I have looked online for HT instructions to get a starting point MOST say 1500 but I have found that the "sweet spot" is 1475 deg I always heat till 1475 let it soak for a few mins (in the oven I can let it soak and it will stay at that temp. if you let it soak in a forge most likely the longer you leave it the hoter its going to get) so I don't know how that would transfer from oven to forge, but just saying 1475 works for me now I know you cant get it to 1475 exactly by eye but that may be a starting point something to shoot for it works for me
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  #28  
Old 12-26-2016, 01:13 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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That proves that there is no such thing as too much temperature control and I really wish that I could turn the fire down in my forge and attain that level of precision but the best that I can do, or any of us heat treating with forges can do, is adjust the fire so that it heats the blade more slowly.

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  #29  
Old 12-26-2016, 07:16 PM
gkyle840 gkyle840 is offline
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With the thermocouple, wouldn't the forge have to be the same temp throughout or can you use it to measure the temp of the steel directly?
My forge definitely has hotspots and cool spots and I have to constantly move my blade back and forth while heating to keep the temp even.

Crex, with my latest blade I heat treated before doing the grinding. The previous I ground the bevel and then dit the HT. I may try grinding one of these bevels back down a bit and put another edge on it.


If and when I move to stainless, is it more economical to send knives out for HT or invest in an oven if I would be doing 10 or so knives a month?
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  #30  
Old 12-27-2016, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkyle840 View Post
With the thermocouple, wouldn't the forge have to be the same temp throughout or can you use it to measure the temp of the steel directly?
My forge definitely has hotspots and cool spots and I have to constantly move my blade back and forth while heating to keep the temp even.

Crex, with my latest blade I heat treated before doing the grinding. The previous I ground the bevel and then dit the HT. I may try grinding one of these bevels back down a bit and put another edge on it.

If and when I move to stainless, is it more economical to send knives out for HT or invest in an oven if I would be doing 10 or so knives a month?
Depends a lot on forge design and whether or not you can even out the heat and control it's range. I made an insertable "tunnel" out of hard firebrick. Takes a while to get up to heat but keeps the area inside the tunnel even, then it's just a matter of getting it to the right temp and holding it there.

What you got to lose at this point?

Depends on how many blades you will be doing, shop foot print, and what you would call economical. Ovens are expensive up front, fairly large, and pull a few amps when running. Can be very handy if you do a lot of knives.


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