Dumb idea... maybe it works?

[Cold Steel Cult]

Hey all, I had a very dumb thought today (as the title implies) and I was wondering if any of you have done this successfully (which I doubt, because it is a rather dumb thought). Okay here we go. I like to practice making knives on mild steel, which as we all know makes a pretty knife but doesnt keep an edge. Case hardening is one possibility, but i think (a dangerousl thing, that thinking) that i have found another. Since soda water is said to be "carbonated" I was wondering if it really has carbon in it. If so, could one theoretically quench a mild steel blade at say cherry red in the carbonated water and come out with a hardened or at least hardenable blade? I dont know, so maybe I will go try it. Any comments or experience would be great.

Thanks guys!

-Jon

[Belstain]

I don't think that soda water will do anything to help.
A quench in brine MAY get it a little hard but not enough to make a serviceable knife.

There really is no reason to use a steel that won't make a decent blade, even if you're only practicing. Good steel is pretty cheap. You can get 5 feet of 1/8" 1080 for about $16 shipped from admiral. 18" of ats34 will run about the same.

http://www.admiralsteel.com/products/blades.html

[cactusforge]

One thing that I have thought about doing is making a knife from low carbon steel and grind it to shape but leaving a gutting edge of 1/16" and then using a o/a torch hard face one side of the bevel then grind the other side till it is sharp. This will give a cutting edge that is unbelievable in how long it will last. Some research will be necessary to find the right hard facing product to use. In theory this will work but there is probably some down side to it.
Just my .02 worth some one try it you just might be surprised in what you got. Gib

[Ray Rogers]

The idea of quenching in a carbonated solution to produce a hard blade from mild steel is flawed logic. What you intend is that the carbon molecules from the solution will add carbon to the steel, thus converting it to a higher carbon steel hopefully suitable for a blade. Won't happen. First, there isn't nearly enough available carbon in a soft drink. Second, what you are talking about is called 'carbon migration' and it happens only at very high temperatures and at a very, very slow rate. So, the liquid will cool the steel long before any migration could occur. If any did occur, it would be more similar to a case hardening process and we already know case hardening is a very poor way to make a blade.

Hard facing might be a bit better but still not much of an improvement. This is the kind of thing you do to make a shiv in prison because the right materials to make a good knife aren't available. It's a lot of work and expense to achieve a mediocre result.

The best solution if you are interested in making the best knife possible for the most reasonable cost is to follow Belstains suggestion and simply buy good steel. There's nothing wrong with experiementing if you have a well defined goal in mind, something for which there is currently no good solution. But, if Newbies would apply half as much effort to actually making a knife from a good piece of steel as they do trying to find ways to make good knives from bad pieces of steel they wouldn't have to spend nearly so much time being 'Newbies', they would be 'knifemakers'......

[Cold Steel Cult]

Hmm... thank you guys for all the feedback. Yeah so it was a dumb idea, as I suspected. Anyway I thought a lot about what Ray said and I think it's about time to switch to a decent steel. Today I'm looking through steel suppliers in the yellow pages and callin 'em to ask if they sell tool steels. I've heard 01 is good for beginners becauser it can be heat treated easily by the average knifemaker. Belstain mentioned 1080 and Admiral does sell it for cheap, though the shipping to my zip code is an arm and a leg !
Can anyone suggest some more steels good for a relatively new knifemaker that are cheap? I know about salvaging stuff from junkyards, but I mean in barstock. Thanks again for all the helpful advice... glad to get more than I hoped for from this thread!

[cactusforge]

K&G is at Lakeside Az 1 800 972 1192 Call before noon and order what you need and get a catalog, you will have your order the next day. Gib

[mete]

Gib, somewhere I have a old paring knife that's made from cheap stainless steel which is hardfaced on one side of the edge. The hardfacing is carbide [there are some available that are easy to apply] and you could cut anything with it .It's somewhat self sharpening since the stainless would wear quickly leaving the carbide.

[cactusforge]

Mete, In another life I did a lot of hard-facing on farming and milling equipment and have thought about doing this for a utility knife but never did. It would be a easy way to make a rough duty knife that would not get dull very often even used and abused. Gib

[Mace]

Interesting thread......Just remember that the only bad question is the one unasked. On that note I have a question.......What is hard facing and what is the process?
Mace

[cactusforge]

Mace, Hard facing is a hard material that is added to the surface of steel. I have not done it for about 50 years so my info is dated and I am sure that there are modern ways of doing it, probably simpler than what I did. What I did was use a A/C torch and basically melted the rod on to the metal after it was hot. Simple enough to do with a little practice. The product to use then was carbide and went on thin and easy. I am sure that there are new methods and material that would be even easer. Gib

[mete]

What's an A/C torch ? does it run by electricity ? You mean ,I think ,O/A torch. Hardfacing is the application of a hard material by torch or arc welding. Materials range from steels to carbides depending on the application. Most often used as a repair process for worn surfaces .

[rhrocker]

Mete said "Most often used as a repair process for worn surfaces "

I've heard of this, some undersized crankshafts and pistons are actually sprayed with a type of metal that bonds onto the undersized piece, then that piece is machined into tolerance. So, using Jons idea of mild steel, and spraying the edge with some sort of hardenable tool steel, may actually work, albiet for a short period of time. Yes, Jon, use regular knife steels that we all use, however, feel free to continue to ask these questions. You've caught the attention of some of the forums more knowledgable members here (excluding myself).

[cactusforge]

Mete, You are right I got it backward should be O/A.
The spray on method would be neat but the equipment cost would be very high, If you had excess to the tooling it would be worth a try. Just put it on one side that way the blade is self sharpening.
Gib

[Fox Creek]

Gib, the old fashioned brazing rod type hard-facing may have been superceded by Gee-Whiz vapor processes, and plazma sputters and all, but it is still a craft in use by Farriers! They hard face metal shoes and hard face ice caulks etc. Centaur Forge has a good bit of their supplies. Neat stuff to read about but I have never had a use for them. Maybe we all should give it a try on a knife. Come to think of it, if one was a self-reparing farm, etc. it might come in handy to wear proof wear- points on hitches, shackles, etc.

[cactusforge]

Richard. this would be a good project if someone had the time to pursue it, I am sure that there are new super slick ways to do it so some research is needed. I did not think that this post would attract this much response so their must be some interest in it. Gib