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  #91  
Old 03-23-2005, 05:59 PM
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Tracy,

That's a bummer about the Silicon, but still worth a test. I'll abrade some mild steel, coat it with Xtreme. We'll see what happens.

The U-05FL I have was opened a couple of months ago and still works/looks the same. The guy at Loctite didn't have any hard data. Just said they tell people to use opened containers in a month. But, heck, they sell the stuff. I'll keep sampling this tube for weeks to come and see if something comes of it.

BTW, I'm also excited about your 324 goop. Was it easy to apply? Clean up? etc.

Hey can you make a quick list of what glues you've used and mark the failures/still running? I've kinda lost track.

Steve
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  #92  
Old 03-23-2005, 10:09 PM
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Winner - sort of



OK Report on testbar 3 - The thin glue line test.

To get everything up to date......

This time the bar was ground clean with a 50grit. Then sandblasted with real sand. Wiped off with a paper towel (no solvents).

The attachment method was C-clamping with moderate pressure.

-------------------------------------------------------
After a few days cure:

Impact test (heretoforwards known as "Wack")
Wack
JB Weld - Failed
Wack
Dishwasher
Freeze one hour -
West Systems - Failed
Freeze eight hours
Wack
Wack
Acraglas Gel - Failed
Wack
Boil in water for 15 minutes
Loctite 406 Super Glue - Failed
Wack
Wack
Wack
Warm Oven 8 hours
Frozen in block of ice 8 hours
Drop Block of Ice from 5 feet.
Gorilla Glue - Failed
Loctite U05-fl - Failed


Still in there:

Loctite Xtreme - You can move the wood a little bit but it's still on
Loctite E-120HP - The wood broke apart. 80% still attached to steel



OK So the dropping the frozen block was a bit out of line. However, it was fun.


Steve


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  #93  
Old 03-23-2005, 10:20 PM
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Steve, the 324 is a bit different. First you spray the surfaces with a fixative and wait for a few minutes for the solvent to evaporate. Then apply a drop or two - because it is so ungodlyfricking expensive and clamp. The contact surfaces that are clamped cure to 'fixture' cure (what ever that is) in 4 minutes or so. Loctite is vague about the final cure strenght but I gave it 24 hours. Any edges that the adhesive oozed out of the pieces being glued, stayed sticky and did not cure even if was on a surface that was sprayed. It's very odd behavior that I'm not sure I'm comfortable with yet. In each of my two load tests however, the joint was fine.

I did a couple more load tests tonight, sorry no pics, on gorilla glue metal to metal, metal to liner to metal and then also shafting epoxy metal to metal.

First, the gorilla glue metal to metal failed immediately. It never set up properly. This stuff takes moisture to kick off and even when I when wet the pieces and put water in the joint to get it going. It failed to take any kind of grip at all. Gorilla glue should definately NOT be used for metal to metal adhesion. The metal to liner to metal piece held 50lbs and then the glue joint failed. I had expected the liner material to fail before the glue. I thought this was interesting and frankly a failure at 50lbs was surprising. I thought if the liner material held, it would go 75lbs at least. I'm going to try a wood piece sandwich and see what that does.

On a side note, there has been a few comments about the excess foam around some of the test pieces giving it a mechanical lock and unfair advantage. This foam excess stuff has almost no strength at all and can be scrapped away with your finger nail. The gorilla web site has some good information on this glue at www.gorillaglue.com This glue has no strength for gap filling at all so if it foams up in a gap, that foam has no strength which is not what you would guess by looking at it work. Foam bad.

The golf shafting epoxy failed cleanly at 50lbs. I'm OK with that I guess. I'd like to have seen more but this is a very strenuous test and a 1" square glue joint holding 50lbs leveraged by 4" is still pretty good. Golf bad. (oops that slipped)

Sooo, the hands down winner on my kinda shear/tensile/load test is the 324 Loctite Speedbonder followed by PC-7.
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  #94  
Old 03-23-2005, 11:09 PM
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The information coming out of this little contest is terrific, and we all appreciate it. But I don't think we'd follow it quite as closely if it wasn't for the chance to see y'all enjoy "whacking" these test samples! Reminds me of the old adage: "An unbreakable toy can be used to break other toys."


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  #95  
Old 03-23-2005, 11:29 PM
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Tracy this is great stuff you're doing.

One thing to note on my latest test: This last test was a thin glue line test. The blocks were fully squeezed against the steel.

OK in my book I believe:

1. Gorilla Glue is find if you are using materials that is bonds well with. The only thing I tried was dymond wood, but that was fine.

2. E-120HP is the winner. Well Xtreme is too. Look at the picture. Xtreme is the only one that held the block intact. It also held just fine when I used simple green.

3. U-05FL held better than the DEVCON and Acraglas gel. And it's flexible too boot.

West systems, DEVCON, Superglues, Acraglas Gel are all off my possible list for slab work. (Acraglas is still my favorite for filling hidden tangs and will remain so.... pending Tracy's tests.)

Steve


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  #96  
Old 03-24-2005, 02:57 AM
Lane Ritter Lane Ritter is offline
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These tests are great. Not being a tester kind of guy, I like like to watch.

I think there are other variables that could change the results. For example, Glue up three sets of samples. Test one sample with the cure time you have been using. Next sample add a week. Last sample at a month. All repeating the same test.

The ice block test looked cool, but it would be hard to repeat and get the same results, would be my guess.

The early failures on most of the tests are mostly the same glues. So that probably wouldn't change.

Some say a true test has to be repeated many many times, to come to a conclusion. But i'm not that anal, and can definatly see that I have been using the wrong glue.

You guys concluded for me, that devcon is going in the trash.

Thanks for the testing, it is greatly appreciated.

Lane

Last edited by Lane Ritter; 03-24-2005 at 03:09 AM.
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  #97  
Old 03-24-2005, 08:09 AM
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SVanderkolff SVanderkolff is offline
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I hope this works. I was seaching on the E-120hp and found this test area. Looks like a peel test, The epoxy failed at 3130 lbs.
http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/v35/Saf...130lbs_JPG.htm

Wow

Steve V


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  #98  
Old 03-26-2005, 09:00 PM
DaveL DaveL is offline
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Did I miss it or was that the "list" of the winners? I was not sure, so if you could, would you do that part again? Thanks, Dave
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  #99  
Old 03-26-2005, 09:21 PM
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Steve,

I tried to find the Xtreme, but they didn't have it anywhere I looked. Went to the Loctite web site and didn't see it listed and couldn't find it with a search. Wonder if they discontinued it?

--Carl
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  #100  
Old 03-27-2005, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveL
Did I miss it or was that the "list" of the winners? I was not sure, so if you could, would you do that part again? Thanks, Dave
Dave, we were close to announcing a preliminary list of winners but there have been so many people following this series of tests we want to get it right so we are going to test a little more. Also, Ken of K&G wants his epoxy tested and I'd like to see it in mix as it is the only adhesive marketed for knife makers besides cutlers resin. In addition, I have a 2nd round of samples glued up ready to start testing and I still have a few left I haven't been able to fail yet from the first round.
Steve and I have started to put together a spread sheet giving grades/pass/fail to various aspects of the adhesives tested. I expect we'll be at this a couple more weeks before we can 'officially' announce the glue wars have been won.

Steve also mentioned to Ken that he is testing mammoth ivory and if Ken could throw in three or four pounds of ivory into the shipment he would appreciate it.

I will be testing folder parts next so if any one wants to send me several dozen pivots, washers, screws (torx) stainless or gold plated, pocket clips (those nice ones that Alex sells) and black lipped mother of pearl I will be glad to test them and let you know. oh...and a large sheet of S30V precision ground to .120"
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  #101  
Old 03-27-2005, 12:30 AM
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One thing I'd like to clarify on the Gorilla glue. It probably should not be used for full tang knives unless you fill up the entire hole. If Gorilla glue (or any other urethane glue like this I suspect) foams up as a result of not being tightly clamped, the joint will fail easily. The foam has no strength at all. Try this yourself some time. It's easy enough. Wet a board, squirt a little gorilla glue on it and let it foam and set up. This will take several minutes to an hour. You will find that you can pick away the foam using your finger nails.
Under compression, the glue can't foam up and so it sticks like the devil is hanging on. Gorilla glue or other polyurethane glues like it will not work for filling gaps.

It will work fine, great in fact, for mounting wood scales on a full tang knife that is anywhere near flat. I would not use it for mounting micarta or G10 since it can't get proper moisture to kick off.
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  #102  
Old 03-27-2005, 05:24 AM
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Ice Tigre Ice Tigre is offline
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Smile

Hey guys,
just wanted to say that I've enjoyed following this, and apreciate you guys takin' the time to do it- and document it.

BTW;
Did anyone happen to do anything with the 2-part epoxy that texas knife makers supply sells? (I thing it is their own brand,as there is no other name on the bottles)



Later,
Gary
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  #103  
Old 03-27-2005, 09:36 AM
fitzo fitzo is offline
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Thanks, Tracy, for that explanation about the Gorilla Glue. I realized after I mentioned it that there might be efficacy by filling the entire void between tang and handle material and not getting any foaming. I will have to hollow out some soft wood, like a pine dowel, and fill a 3/8" through-hole and clamp it off to see if there is sufficient pressure generated during polymerization to crack the stuff. That may still be a worry with ancient materials that may have a crack that runs through the piece, such as ivory or oosic.

However, whereas I had once discounted Gorilla Glue for that specific application, it is obviously worth revisiting. I have done the "dollop on a borad and scrape away" test and was discouraged. It was only since this experiment started that I read about the strength foamed versus not.

Thank you! Happy Easter!

Last edited by fitzo; 03-27-2005 at 09:38 AM.
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  #104  
Old 03-27-2005, 11:38 AM
Kelly Carlson Kelly Carlson is offline
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As an accidental tester of adhesives for 40+ years, I noted the absence of one of my favorites: AccraWeld from Brownells.
While I haven't conducted anywhere close to the level of testing reported in this thread, I do have a few of my earlier knives from the '60's held together primarily by this epoxy, including one which has seen duty in climates ranging form jungle to arctic, and they are still holding up well; also have a pair of wooden skis which were broken in half in the '60's and clamped back together with AccraWeld, and they are still together - although last used 20 years ago. As with most, preparation is important, along with good mixing, and adequate curing time at the correct temperatures.
A wonderful test - thank you! A summary report or chart would be great?


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  #105  
Old 03-27-2005, 11:00 PM
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Where's the best place to order E-120HP ?

In looking at the Loctite info sheets, it appears that E-120, E-20, and E-60 have about the same holding properties. The shorter cure times may work as well as the 2 hour stuff.


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