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The Newbies Arena New to Knife Making? Here's all the help you need ...

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  #1  
Old 06-12-2013, 11:25 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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KITH Preparation Class - Heat Treating

As most of you know, some of us just participated in a KITH that was particularly aimed at the newest members in this forum. It was a lot of fun and very educational. Part of the purpose this KITH was to get your knife tested by someone else. In the process of doing this we discovered that some of the blades had not achieved optimal heat treatment.

So, before we do another KITH we decided in our Chat last Sunday (why weren't you all there?) that we should try to bring everyone up to speed on basic heat treating. This is your chance to make a very simple blade and have it thoroughly tested to see that the heat treat is as good as it should be.

The idea is that everyone who participates will make a basically identical blade from 1084. The blade will be a simple full flat grind, full tang, and finished to no more that 220 grit and have a simple wood handle attached. That's it.

The knives will be shipped to me so that I can do a hardness test on each one. Then, the knives will all be shipped to Eli Jensen who has volunteered to do the comparative and destructive testing and report the results on each one.

A pattern will be provided for you to use in making your blade. If necessary, I will order the steel so that we know everyone has exactly the same steel. This will require a few dollars from you to cover the cost of the steel. Basically, I'll order a large pieces from Aldo and you buy a 12" piece from me very cheap.

All you need is some way to heat treat your blades. It doesn't matter what way you do it, all that matters is that you think it works - the testing will determine whether or not you were right about that.

Once we get everyone up to speed on their heat treating we'll have another KITH. There is no schedule set for all this yet but, most likely, it will happen in the next 8 weeks or so. If you are interested in learning how to or improving your HT process on simple carbon steels just say so in this thread. I'll sketch out a knife pattern and put it up for discussion in the Chat Room this Sunday. If you would like to have some input on the design just drop in between 5 pm - 8 pm Pacific time on Sunday ....

Here is the pattern (1/8" stock please):



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Last edited by Ray Rogers; 09-04-2013 at 11:03 AM.
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  #2  
Old 06-12-2013, 12:04 PM
jdale jdale is offline
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This sounds like a great idea, I'm in.
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  #3  
Old 06-12-2013, 02:40 PM
Electrathon Electrathon is offline
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I am in. I agree the easiest way is for everyone to buy the same steel from you.

Do we get the destroyed blade back? Or at least pictures of it after destruction?

Aaron
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Old 06-12-2013, 03:17 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Maybe, if Eli has the time to do the shipping and you're willing to pay the shipping. He might manage the pictures though. The best way to find out is to bring it up in the Sunday Chat since Eli is usually there ...


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Old 06-12-2013, 03:46 PM
Gary Roberts Gary Roberts is offline
 
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Ray
Heck yes, I need this too!
Gary
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  #6  
Old 06-12-2013, 06:50 PM
Hempish Hempish is offline
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I would love to do this since I missed the last one. Count me in for sure on this one.
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  #7  
Old 06-12-2013, 07:46 PM
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Eli Jensen Eli Jensen is offline
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I have no need for 20 broken knives. I'll ship em back. Got a design in mind as well, will put it up here in a bit
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  #8  
Old 06-12-2013, 08:05 PM
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Naboyle Naboyle is offline
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Count me in.
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  #9  
Old 06-12-2013, 08:26 PM
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piggy piggy is offline
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This is an incredible offer, that every newbie or new to heat treating should try to participate in.

Ray what an offer and Eli too.

I am going to try really hard to participate.

It is a lot of extra work for Ray, but the same steel does insure a better consistency in diagnosing heat treatments.
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:21 PM
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Eli Jensen Eli Jensen is offline
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What you guys can do is come up with trials to put these blades through! I was thinking just off the top of my head:

Sharpness - see if it catches the fingernail, then if it cuts cardstock, then regular paper, then newspaper, then shave hair. I could also just measure the sharpness i.e. how many pounds of force it takes to severe a 3 ply linen string.

Edge retention - cut a bunch of wood or something. Something rough that dulls knives fast.

Toughness - batoning? Also part of edge retention? Maybe cut up brass rods (edge toughness)

Durability - bend that sucker till it breaks. I will try and record the angle it breaks at. 90 degrees is the goal I suppose.

I'm also going to set it up so its scored, and it'll be up to the maker if they want their score to be private or not.
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  #11  
Old 06-12-2013, 11:01 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Eli,

Start with the standard tests such as the brass rod. We want to know if the edge chips or rolls over. The blade should bend to about 30 degrees without breaking. When it does break we want to see a fine grain structure. If the edge geometry is too poor to give fair results you may have to regrind the blade a little yourself.

That is the important stuff: this is all about getting the HT correct. Sharpness and cutting ability are, of course, affected by the HT but the edge geometry is just as important for that. This isn't about edge geometry, it's about the quality of the HT - stay focused on that. You can test sharpness and geometry if you want to go through that, it would be helpful, but the HT is what this is about and we don't want to lose sight of that ....


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  #12  
Old 06-12-2013, 11:14 PM
Electrathon Electrathon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli Jensen View Post
What you guys can do is come up with trials to put these blades through! I was thinking just off the top of my head:

Sharpness - see if it catches the fingernail, then if it cuts cardstock, then regular paper, then newspaper, then shave hair. I could also just measure the sharpness i.e. how many pounds of force it takes to severe a 3 ply linen string.

Edge retention - cut a bunch of wood or something. Something rough that dulls knives fast.

Toughness - batoning? Also part of edge retention? Maybe cut up brass rods (edge toughness)

Durability - bend that sucker till it breaks. I will try and record the angle it breaks at. 90 degrees is the goal I suppose.

I'm also going to set it up so its scored, and it'll be up to the maker if they want their score to be private or not.
I like the idea of testing how many pounds it takes to cut, it is measurable.

As for scoring, you could show all the knives with just an ID number, if the maker claims it then others will know who made it.

How about a recommended shape for the knife. It would be one more leveler in the field.

I am new to posting but have been lurking for some time. I am a leatherworker, have made a number of knives from production blanks. Have made a few from scratch, hardening/tempering is my weak link.

I am excited.

Aaron
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  #13  
Old 06-12-2013, 11:20 PM
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Eli Jensen Eli Jensen is offline
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Right on ray. We'll keep the sharpness part brief.

Aaron, everyone will use the same pattern and essentially all make the exact same knife
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  #14  
Old 06-13-2013, 02:12 AM
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piggy piggy is offline
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I'm glad u guys brought this up. I was wondering the same thing. Since this is HT if we needed to spend the time getting an Eli sharp edge.

Maybe individuals can opt for extra Eli testing. This could be secondary to the whole HT agenda.

I guess this is all the stuff that needs to be hashed out on Sunday chat.
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  #15  
Old 06-13-2013, 04:53 AM
Kevster Kevster is offline
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Id love the chance to participate. Count me in.
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