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  #1  
Old 01-20-2017, 05:18 AM
nhatvoone nhatvoone is offline
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blade supplier?

Wow, am enjoying all these posts. Am a hobbyist, want to know where I should look for a blade supplier for long, bread-knife type blades. Any ideas, thanks for any help! Sus
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  #2  
Old 01-20-2017, 07:16 AM
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Crex Crex is offline
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Jantz had a few at the Blade Show last year that might pass as "bread" blades, but don't see many of them. Alternate if you can't find what you want - go to thrift store and look through the knife box. I've seen several Vitronox, Forschner, Chicago, etc from time to time. Knock the handles off, clean up, and rehandle with nicer material. Not much different than buying a blank (lot cheaper). I have met a few knife "assemblers" that do this on a regular basis. Not my boat floater, but not for me to judge.

If you are looking for higher grade material, you will probably have to get them custom made.


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  #3  
Old 01-20-2017, 08:24 AM
WNC Goater WNC Goater is offline
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^^What Crex said. Jantz has a fair selection of blades including kitchen knives. Not sure how many are bread specific though. USA Knifemaker has a lot of blades as well but don't know if he has anything kitchen specific.


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Old 01-20-2017, 11:46 AM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Texas Knifemakers and Jantz both carry the same bread cutter. TKS' BL587C has a cryo treatment and is one of the sharpest bread knives I have ever seen. The one I ordered from them was RC 58.5 hard. TKS will hardness test any kit knife they sell for free.
As for cryo after HT I had Dtec do an experiment and that was to complete the HT on a 440C knife including final temper. Then Dave measured its hardness and then he put it in liquid nitrogen overnight and the knife gained 0.9 hardness, almost a full point of hardness which is significant enough for me to pay the extra $4 for cryo. So a finished stainless knife does improve with a final cryo with some caveats like CPM S30V requires a temper after each cryo. Or if you cryo'd the knife between tempers I would guess it would not improve much.
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/produ...roducts_id=479

Last edited by jimmontg; 01-20-2017 at 12:16 PM.
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Old 01-20-2017, 01:25 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Actually, any blade that gets cryoed should always follow up with a temper cycle. You can cryo immediately after quenching (and the blade has cooled to room temp) and then temper or you can quench, temper, cryo, and temper again but ending your heat treatment on a cryo is not recommended in any of the literature I have seen ....


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Old 01-20-2017, 06:15 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Depends on the steel Ray

Texas Knifemakers Supply sells a lot of chinese made knives made out of 9crMoV or 7cr17MoV and a cryo after a full HT does not make the knife brittle. I spoke to Alex at TKS about it as I figured it is just a sales gimmick, but he assured me that most of the non-super steels do not get brittle or lose toughness. It is why I said there are certain caveats to a final cryo with no temper.

I can have Dtec do a bend test on the knife or send it to me. I have had no problems with the cryo'd knives I have bought from TKS and they are all above RC 58 which is my bottom line for a knife for most applications. I had Dave do the experiment to see if what they were saying was true. Alex at TKS said where the problems comes in is if there is a high amount of Vanadium in the steel. A chef's knife I bought from them was quite flexible and over 58 hardness and it had <.20 V in it which makes a difference if the carbon is high enough, but not a huge one. It all boils down to the chemistry of the metal.

I would not have even brought it up without some background analysis and checking. I am not even sure if Dave did an initial Cryo on the 440C so I'll let him speak to his HT, but he has 440C down pretty good and is getting better all the time with some other steels. I know a temper is called for after cryo, but with some metals, like the cheaper Chinese stuff, cryo doesn't hurt as much as it improves. It certainly improved Dave's 440C and I would imagine some other steels would benefit from it and others would not like S30V.

The bottom line is a kit knife with a cryo treatment will be better than the same knife without it. I was just trying to tell nhatvoone (?) that the best non custom bread knife he can buy is from TKS. I bought one as a gift and it was the best bread blade my Uncle had ever seen. Jantz sells the same knife without the cryo. I most certainly am not telling a budding knifemaker to cryo a blade with no temper, I should have been more clear.

Last edited by jimmontg; 01-20-2017 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 01-20-2017, 07:05 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Ya, I hear you. I cryo everything. But, I still wouldn't do it without following up with a temper. Look at it like this: the effect of cryo is to continue the process started by the quench. The quench causes stress in the steel, that stress is removed by tempering. Now, as you said, some steels are not as affected by this as others but that isn't to say they are not affected at all, i.e., cryo causes stress. Admittedly, that should be considerably less stress than quenching but still stress nonetheless. Just because Dtec didn't have a blade that failed doesn't mean that no blade will fail. In the final analysis, as unlikely as a failure of this type might be for some steels the insurance against failure is cheap and easy - simply do a temper cycle and remove even the possibility of having an issue ...


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Old 01-20-2017, 08:04 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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I agree Ray

Personally I would do at least a minor temper (-300) if i was selling knives like TKS does. I do not know of any other company that offers the cryo service for kit knives. I think Dave did a cryo after quench, but can't remember, but he was as surprised as I was at the rise in hardness and don't forget cryo increases toughness too. I am going to have to get ahold of my Metallurgy professor to see what he has to say about it.

It is such a large and odd subject when it comes to HT. Look at AEB-L steel, which only needs to be taken down to dry ice temperature to make it a much better steel and you do not even need to soak it. Just drop it down to -95F and it gets harder and tougher. My 3 day soak in dry ice does wonders for O1's edge holding ability. You just need a 4" thick wall of styrofoam for it to hold that long. If you can't do Liquid Nitrogen the dry ice for long periods does work wonders for some steels. I read a scientific report on shallow cryo and the longer you can hold down near -105 the more austenite conversion you will get to martensite, just not as good as deep cryo at -360. That is why I built a 4" thick ice chest for the dry ice. It doesn't evaporate for almost a week with that insulation and there is no need for alcohol or diesel fuel. Ten Lb. block on the bottom and ten lb. block on top of the blades. At current prices where I live that is $26. It can hold approximately 15-20 blades depending on sizes and after 24 hours they will all be near -105.

I remember reading, I think it was Wayne Goddard on leaving some 52100 blades in his shop well below 0 for several days and he said they were some of the best knives he had made. It was back in the 90's so it may have been someone else up in Montana. There is a myth that you have to get down to super cold temps to cryo, it has some validity, but below zero temps will work on the chrome and moly carbides to a certain extent.

Sorry for the long lecture, but I have been studying this field for a long time. Overnight in dry ice will not accomplish much with O1, 3 days is a different story.
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Old 01-21-2017, 10:13 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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Yeh it REALLY surprised me but Jim did ask me to do a experiment....I HTed a 440c blade as normal..tested the hardness actually tested it twice (well I guess 8 times 4 test then average then another 4 test average) I tested so many times I wnted to make sure it was accurate and it was spot on,, THEN cryo'ed the blade again over night as usual and then let it warm to room temp and tested it again the results were the blade was almost a whole point harder (I would have to look I wrote it down) but I think it was .8 or .9 harder than what it was on the first test. this supiresed me so much I tested it 3 times (again really 12 times as I did 4 and average) I did not bend or try to break but sounds like a good idea maybe I will.....
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Old 01-21-2017, 11:38 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Why did that surprise you? The purpose of cryo is to continue the process started by quenching. Quenching makes the changes that allow the blade to harden. Cryo continues the hardening. For some steels this can amount to two full points of additional hardness. And, as Jim pointed out, cryo generally adds toughness as well...


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Old 01-21-2017, 11:53 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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I figured that the first cryo after quench would do what it could but after that and temper I didn't think another cryo would do any more. I figured kinda like it did what it could and that's it on the first one. so say normally on the first cryo over night it brings it up a point so if I left it 2 days in the LN would it go up another point? and more? there has to be a point where no more cryo is going to help at all and I thought that first soak would do all it could, the fact that a 2nd one after everything did more that would tell me that the first wasn't achieving all it could???
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Old 01-21-2017, 12:55 PM
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According to most 'experts' cryo doesn't have to take a long time. Something on the order of an hour or two should be enough. But, from your experiment I would say that longer cryo in the first place would be a good idea. I always left mine in over night. A longer cryo might help but it can never hurt. You are definitely right that there is a limit to how much change can be made. Remember too that when various people say 'cryo' they aren't always talking about the same process. Dry ice is one thing, liquid nitrogen is quite another. Likewise, in the liquid is one thing and suspended above the liquid is another. It's hard to be sure you are comparing apples to apples. And then there is the steel itself. Even when we say 440C we may not be talking about the same exact alloy as that steel is made by a lot of different manufacturers.

In the end, I'd leave it over night - not likely to get a lot more out of it than that. And no matter what, once the cryo is done I'd follow with a temper cycle because if the cryo does make any change then it has also added stress and that stress should be relieved. The good news is that temper cycles are easy to do and even if an extra temper doesn't help it can't hurt so the smart money would just git 'er done...


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