Field test on D2 hunter

[shgeo]

I have been happy with the performance of D2 knives processing deer so far, having no trouble doing a whole deer without dulling one.

This year I gave one to a friend to take elk hunting. He and his son and a nephew all got bulls and they field dressed, skinned and quartered all three with this knife. He then boned out his elk all without sharpening. He tuned the edge up after this with a ceramic V sharpener from Walmart and it is ready to go.

This is beyond what I expected from D2. Many people claim that various steels are better, especially the CPMs-I use S30V also-but I am now questioning just how much better you can get.

Considering initial cost, greater difficulty of grinding and the increased complexity of heat treating, I wonder if S30V is worth it. The extra toughness and better rust resistance are factors, but I have not had any rust problems with D2. (Living in New Mexico probably has something to do with that.)

[Jerry Hossom]

I'd say if you don't need stainless and the extra toughness you don't need S30V. It was designed to provide about the same edge holding as D2, which is plenty good, so if that's what you need, D2 is just fine.

[Gabe Newell]

3V would have somewhat better wear resistance and dramatically better toughness than D2. And cost more. Are there other reasons to chose between D2 and 3V?

[Jerry Hossom]

3V will definitely take a finer edge than D2. The fineness of an edge is pretty much limited by grain size. 3V has a grain size in the range of 1-3 microns. D2 is generally about 25-50 microns if I remember correctly. That's one reason people used to say that D2 took a terrible edge and held it forever.

[shgeo]

To put these figures in perspective, 50 microns is about the size of a fine human hair.

I would not argue that S30V and 3V don't take a finer edge than D2. Using the hones and stones that I do, I can get a pretty fine edge on D2. It will shave hair without touching the skin, so I will beg to differ that D2 only takes a crappy edge. I use a extrafine Diasharp diamond hone at 1200 grit to shape the edge followed by a surgical black Arkansas stone at 2000 grit and finish with a translucent Arkansas stone that I believe is 6000 grit. You can't feel any roughness on the edge. It will slice loosely held paper towel, but will sometimes catch on toilet paper. I have used it at HRC 60+ to cut off the ribs of a deer-both sides-without chipping. The edge did turn though.

I do really like S30V, and will continue to use it as well. I just think that D2 gets a bad rap sometimes.

[Jerry Hossom]

Just for the record, I didn't coin that description of D2. It was around even before I got into knifemaking. I'm sure D2 can be given a good edge; it's just that a goodly number of people weren't able to. The grain size numbers were given me by a steel metallurgist.

Every steel has its quirks. There are a goodly number of knifemakers who won't work with 3V.

[berettaman12000]

I like D-2 a lot for a using blade, it takes an awesome edge and holds it. It is very easy to sharpen if you don't let it get too dull.
I'm really getting interested in the 3v for a user...I know that your not taking orders Jerry, but do you know someone who does work with 3V and does a good job with the steel?
Thanks!

[Jason Cutter]

Theres sharp, and then theres sharp. I also think that D2 gets a bad rap. There is more to the functionality of a knife edge than just how it shaves hair. There aren't too many hair shaving tasks for a field knife out there in the real world. The bottom line is that for MOST of us mere mortals, we would be hard pressed to tell the difference between most of the better cutlery steels. By this I mean starting at the bench standard 440C all the way up to S30V which is all the rage. Most of us never use a knife long enough in a single sitting to notice the difference. And most of use will never be in a situation to break a knife. (Although there are some knives out there that deserve to get broken...)

I read a bit of sales literature about S30V - it says that it holds an edge 30% longer than 440C. (Great, and it is no doubt much tougher too.) But it also seems more than twice a difficult to resharpen. To me that is VERY important, probably more important than absolute edge holding per se.

Hell, I never even complain about stain resistance on 1095 and O-1. I think D-2 is great stuff. Jason.

[Jerry Hossom]

Whoa! Just so there's no mistaking what I was saying, IF I weren't using CPM-3V, I'd be using D2. D2 is a heck of a steel. Some outstanding knifemakers use D2 and they're outstanding knifemakers because their knives are outstanding. You can't make an outstanding knife with crappy steel.

I don't doubt for a minute that a skilled person can put a very good edge on D2. The "average" knife user probably can't, but that's probably not all that important. The average knife user can't put a good edge on anything. I deal with a lot of average knife users and I sharpen a lot of knives that aren't my own. I've seen VERY few knives that have been customer sharpened that had a very good edge. I doubt that applies to people who are reading this, because if you have enough interest in knives to be reading this, you're not average by any means. Average is the guy who goes hunting once a year, and sharpens his knife the week or night before the season opens (if at all). He hasn't touched that knife since he skinned his deer last year. It really doesn't matter, because field dressing, skinning and even cutting up a whitetail (as much as they are cut up in the field) isn't very demanding. Most hunters come home with four hams and the backstraps and that's it. Personally, I don't like a sharp knife for skinning because it cuts the skin too easily, especially when my hands are cold and my hands are most always cold when I'm skinning.

In most field use, durability and a reasonably sharp edge are all you need. People who spend $300 on a hunter want more than that, but that's primarily because they spent $300, and not because they need something sharp enough to shave the hair on a baby's butt. What they do need is a knife they can stick in the ground and pick up again and still have it cut fairly well, because that's what they're going to do. In that case, the shape of the edge is likely much more important than its shaving sharpness or the steel used. The finer the edge when it goes into the ground or runs across a section of leg bone as they're hacking off the hocks, the duller that edge will be when it's done. The finest possible edge is the weakest edge; it will either chip or roll and that will make it dull quickly. The stronger the edge, meaning less hair popping, the longer it will maintain that edge in real use. (I admit that's an over-simplification of the facts, but it's generally true in most cases) This isn't just about "wear resistance" as measured by the steel companies; it's about that PLUS lateral toughness, ductility and geometry. AND THIS IS JUST MY OPINION!

I used to put "functional" edges all my knives, but finally stopped doing that because people expected every knife, regardless of its intended use, to be a hair popper, so now I ship all my knives with hair popping edges, or as close to that as my conscience will allow. I ship swords that are shaving sharp, knowing that if one ever got used it would chip or roll the first time it met an opposing blade. I back that edge with sufficient steel so the damage will be minimized and can be sharpened out, and the edge won't chip more than a millimeter or so, but it's not a good edge for a sword. Similarly with combat and fighting knives, I ship them VERY sharp, knowing that when they hit metal or the spine of another knife with a hard blow or are run across a nail in a crate a few times they're likely to roll. I usually offer everyone, especially military, a functional edge that won't ever do that and will generally still be cutting pretty well at the end of their deployment, but for $400-800 many still want hair splitting sharp. Military people are usually more understanding of this though. Few hunters are.

High impact steels are more tolerant of sharpness than other air hardened steels. Most of the blades I make today are intended for rough use, and that's why I mostly use high impact steels. But I also use 154CM, and design the edge accordingly. D2 and 154CM have similar toughness qualities; D2 might have a slight advantage there. D2 is a LOT more wear resistant. They take a similar edge in my experience. I like 154CM for hunters, but I doubt one could quarter an elk. Most hunters who use my 154CM blades can get through 3 deer in a season without sharpening. Some haven't been sharpened in years and are still cutting. D2 is better.

In REAL use, S30V will hold an edge a LOT longer than 440C, a WHOLE lot longer!

Sorry for the rant, but I tend to get emotional about this subject.

[Jason Cutter]

Thats not rant, thats great. I'm gonna print that, Jerry... I think you're absolutely right about what people expect for what they pay for, regardless of whether they "need" it or not.

Could I throw other philosophical points ? IN the world of cut, makers like myself are newbies, and if I were to make a S30V knife for ??? $300, I'd be viewed with some degree of suspicion and possibly not make too many sales and be significantly out of pocket for extra materials / tooling / wear costs. But possibly make $200 knives from D2 or O-1 (which I know how to work well) and you might find that buyers are willing to bridge the gap and make the "gamble" to buy what they see. That is, if they LIKE what they SEE, because regardless, that is what determines most sales. It becomes a different matter when they USE what they BOUGHT (if it gets to that...)

Once established, I might make the jump to S30V or whatever good steel comes along and work on previous success with less of a gamble. I think its an evolving process for the maker, in their own development as a maker. I'm looking at your own knives, Jerry, and feel that customers trust your work ALREADY and know that Paul Bos does a great HT, etc. and whatever they pay, they get their $$ worth.

I'm a little saddened by the fact that great cutlery steels like S30V and the well-made eg.- 52100 knives really designed to cut, are purchased primarily for they fact that they represent some sort of cutlery status symbol. The other thing is that there are subgroups of customers who are already very fixed in their preferences, those who believe that 420J2 is the ultimate steel !! Or those who will not budge from using 440C, no matter how you try to promote the virtues of another steel / style etc. Or the buyer who will re-mortgage their house, because they MUST HAVE a particular steel from the far ends of the earth.

The bottom line for makers is that if you want to sell knives, you need to make a good knife and still be ruled by customer preferences. In order to make a good knife, you need to be familiar with the steel of choice, no matter what it is, and understand its properties, virtues and limitations and be able to promote it without glib superlatives. There is NO perfect steel, No perfect maker, No Perfect user.

Sorry for the rant too. Its getting a bit misdirected from the original thread... Jason.

[Jerry Hossom]

Jason, I think you make a good point. Unless you're a super star in this business, you are constrained to making knives in the price range people are willing to pay for your work. I've made and sold a couple blades over $1000, but if I tried to make a living at that I'd quickly starve. When I was selling $200 hunters, I couldn't sell $500 damascus hunters, even though the price was arguably justfied by the added costs. I have some of that problem with S30V. It takes a LOT more work to make blades in that steel, and I don't make enough extra on it to completely justify it. Still, I just suck it up and make them anyway, because it is a great steel.

The reason I still make blades in 154CM is because there are people who want my knives who simply can't afford the extra $100 or so I charge for S30V, and it probably doesn't matter in terms of how they'll use the knife, if they ever do.

I've got a couple blades hanging on the wall of my shop and I don't know what steel they are because I neglected to mark them. I'll probably never know. If I don't know, who else will?

[shgeo]

I continue to be impressed by S30V, but am able to sell D2 knives easier, as Jason said above. I still have my day job and operate in a part of the US where very few people have ever heard of S30V.

I started this thread as a comment on how pleasantly suprised I was by the performance of the D2. One of my main goals has been to make knives that don't have to be sharpened in the middle of processing a critter. Three bull elk certainly fills the bill.

Jerry, I don't know much about skinning whitetails, but mule deer and elk skin pretty easily-you just use a knife around the legs and pull the hide off of most of the rest. I do like a very sharp knife for the cutting parts. I have learned over the years how not to poke holes.

[Jerry Hossom]

Yeah, well I still poke holes occassionally.

No doubt about it, three elk's an impressive score, and I certainly didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

[Gary Mulkey]

I wasn't going to jump in here but can't resist any longer since D2 & S30V have been my steels of choise since S30V was introduced.
I am still a huge proponent of S30V but have gone back to D2 as my first steel for many of the reasons already mentioned as well as one more which may be the main one, customer recognition.

I have found over the last two years that when all of my knives either at a show or in my store were S30V that I have lost sales due to a lack of recognition. This was even though I would spend the time to "sell the steel" to each customer. When I tell a potential customer that the blade is made of D2, most will know of it's edge holding or at least have heard something of it. It's like having a second-party approval. This trend my change over time and if so then I may rethink this, but until then the bulk of my blades will be of D2.

Gary

[Jerry Hossom]

There may well be a stigma attached to S30V that will cause it to suffer for some time. As soon as you say "stainless" you're tagging it with the negative connotations that are usually attached to stainless blades. Most people have only experienced 420 or 440A stainless blades, and that doesn't do much to sell S30V, and rightly so. Even most factory produced ATS-34 blades aren't all that great because of the heat treating issues.

There's just no arguing with the simple economics of having to make what you can sell.

Glad you jumped in Gary. That was a very useful point. Thanks.