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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 09-15-2011, 11:16 PM
Hotrod1916 Hotrod1916 is offline
 
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getting started

I would like to know what is needed to get started in forging knives from the forge to finishing the handle and blade.

I know i need these:
1. gas forge
2. grinder but what kind
3 epoxy for the handle

other than this im lost
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  #2  
Old 09-16-2011, 06:53 AM
DLawson DLawson is offline
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Hotrod,

I just got started in knifemaking myself. (stock removal, not forging...yet

One of the best books you could read to help you get started is Wayne Goddards book "The $50 Knife Shop". I'd also suggest his other book, "The Wonder of Knife Making".

Finally, another book I'd highly recommend is "The Complete Bladesmith".

As for your list, you don't actually "need" a grinder, although one is helpful. Plenty of folks make beautiful knives without 'em.

Other things you'll need are:

Knife Steel - not "mild" steel
Hacksaw - you're going to have to cut some steel
Handle material - you can get started with premium wood from the lumberyard such as Oak and then stain it
Tongs and Hammers if you'll be forging
An anvil of some sort
Quenching oil
Safety equipment such as glasses, gloves, apron, respirator, etc
Pin material, ie; brass, stainless, aluminum - check your local hardware. Ace usually has a good selection
Sandpaper in many different grades

And that's all I can think of right now...the books I mentioned above are great places to start. I'd also recommend YouTube has there are some great tutorials there. Don't forget to check out the stickies here and on knifeforums!

Good luck!

Don

Last edited by DLawson; 09-16-2011 at 06:54 AM. Reason: ommissions
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  #3  
Old 09-16-2011, 08:49 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Start by filling out your profile so we know where you are. That way, if another knife maker is in your area he might offer you some time in his shop. Also, it helps if you'd tell us something about your background.

Most of what you need is knowledge rather than tools. A source of heat, a hammer, and something hard for an anvil are the basic tools but there are magnitudes of complexity just in those simple things. Read books, buy videos, and use the Search function in these forums and you'll find a thousand different ways to forge blades. From that, you'll be able to pick the methods and tools that will work best for you (based on your background and budget and location and living circumstances and your general interest).

Build some kit knives first. Choose blades similar to the ones you want to make, select the handle materials, and finish the handles, maybe even make a sheath. Doing this will tell you everything you need to know about what tools you will need to finish your knives while it teaches you those skills.

Next, buy some blade steel and make a blade using hacksaw, files, and sandpaper. The tools you use to accomplish this are the tools you'll need to finish your forged blades and you'll learn those skills. Once the blade is made, you may send it out for heat treatment or you may decide it's time to build that first forge.

Knife making is a HUGE complicated subject. Break it down into small steps to avoid becoming overwhelmed and you'll be successful. We'll be here to answer your questions as you take those steps .....


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Old 09-16-2011, 10:15 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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I can't add much to what Don and Ray already said except that if you start out with the books before you get anything else you will find the answers to most of your questions. The ones listed already are great. A little book learning ahead of time will cut down on the mistakes that you'll make and save you a lot more money than the cost of the books. They will also help cut down on the frustration that every beginner goes through and increases the likelyhood that you will be able to stick with the craft.

Doug


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Old 09-16-2011, 10:23 AM
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Eli Jensen Eli Jensen is offline
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I'm with Ray on this one. Knifemaking sounds cool, and it is, but it is totally different than I expected it to be. Frustration is your biggest enemy. You think you've got the picture but then you really don't until you mess it up 1-3+ times. For every small step there is in knifemaking, I can remember a tantrum/fit/breakdown/tears associated with it.

Master kit knives and handles. There is just as much that goes into handles as into steel. Then do stock removal on air hardened steels and send them out for heat treat. Then tackle some you can heat treat yourself. This itself should take 3-12+ months. Then tackle forging.

The size of the bite you take is directly correlated to investment $$$, and if you take too big a bite too fast, you'll quit and lose that $$$. I guarantee it.
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  #6  
Old 09-16-2011, 10:49 AM
DLawson DLawson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt-Jens View Post
I'm with Ray on this one. Knifemaking sounds cool, and it is, but it is totally different than I expected it to be. Frustration is your biggest enemy. You think you've got the picture but then you really don't until you mess it up 1-3+ times. For every small step there is in knifemaking, I can remember a tantrum/fit/breakdown/tears associated with it.

Master kit knives and handles. There is just as much that goes into handles as into steel. Then do stock removal on air hardened steels and send them out for heat treat. Then tackle some you can heat treat yourself. This itself should take 3-12+ months. Then tackle forging.

The size of the bite you take is directly correlated to investment $$$, and if you take too big a bite too fast, you'll quit and lose that $$$. I guarantee it.
No truer words have been spoken! Although I'd been wanting to make knives for nearly 10 years, it was only about a month or so ago that I actually started. After all the research and reading I did over the years, I thought I had it figured out and that it would be relatively simple.

When Capt Jens says it's totally different and frustrating, he means it...in spades! It took me about 2 weeks to finish my first knife working part time on it. I was making so many errors it wasn't funny. It got to where I hated to see that #$%&* blade!! At one point, I thought that once I finish this blade, that's it, no more for me. How can something so small and simple be so darn hard to make??!!!

But I was determined to see it finished. And when I had it finished and shaved hair off my arm after sharpening, it was much more satisfying than I'd thought it would be. All the troubles seemed like distant memories and I couldn't wait to start my next one!

Good luck, just take it slow!

Last edited by DLawson; 09-16-2011 at 10:52 AM. Reason: spelling
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  #7  
Old 09-16-2011, 12:44 PM
Hotrod1916 Hotrod1916 is offline
 
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Well first off thank you all for the replys and yes I know it's a frustrating craft, I've been a lurker on the forums for a long time now.
I will take everyone's advise and get some books first and see if I will be able to stick with the techniques provided.
As far as experience goes, I have none but I do havethe attitude and mental capacity to learn what goes into making some of the beautiful knives I've seen. I like the idea of forging more than stock removal because it seems to be more involved.
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  #8  
Old 09-16-2011, 01:56 PM
grant grant is offline
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Originally Posted by Hotrod1916 View Post
I like the idea of forging more than stock removal because it seems to be more involved.
I jumped into the deep end learning this summer. It's been difficult and rewarding.

The forging is the easy/fun part for me. It's when I get to grinding and finishing that I screw stuff up irretrievably.

I know that feeling of wanting to do it all RIGHT NOW. But unless you have several thousand dollars to sink into tools, equipment and training, I'd start with kits or stock removal and work your way toward forging.

I bought a lot of tools starting out, and few of them are quite right, so I'm now spending a lot of time building and modifying tools. I think if you start with kits or stock removal, you'll be able to bootstrap yourself to forging while still making knives.

Also, the best money I spent wasn't on equipment. It was on a couple of DVDs and some time in the shop with Ed Caffrey. Actually using the tools in Ed's class taught me more about what I need to be a successful knifemaker than anything I read or even a week screwing around in the shop trying to figure things out on my own.

I don't know if all of that blather is a help or not. Take it slow and enjoy the journey.
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  #9  
Old 09-16-2011, 05:28 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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QUOTE: I like the idea of forging more than stock removal because it seems to be more involved.

Well, yes, and no. It probably is more difficult to shape a blade by forging than by stock removal so, in that respect, it can be more involved. On the other hand, it isn't as if you can ignore the need to learn stock removal. Most people in the beginning phase of knife making think there is a choice to be made between forging blades and making them by stock removal. The reality is closer to a decision of from what type of steel blob do you wish to begin the stock removal phase of making your blade: a bar of steel or a forged blade shape. After that, you may do less stock removal on a forged blade but you will be doing the same steps and using the exact same stock removal skills as someone who started with a steel bar.

The either/or question isn't whether you make your blades by stock removal or forging, it's whether or not you want to forge at all ....


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Old 09-16-2011, 05:59 PM
WBE WBE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
QUOTE: I like the idea of forging more than stock removal because it seems to be more involved.

Well, yes, and no. It probably is more difficult to shape a blade by forging than by stock removal so, in that respect, it can be more involved. On the other hand, it isn't as if you can ignore the need to learn stock removal. Most people in the beginning phase of knife making think there is a choice to be made between forging blades and making them by stock removal. The reality is closer to a decision of from what type of steel blob do you wish to begin the stock removal phase of making your blade: a bar of steel or a forged blade shape. After that, you may do less stock removal on a forged blade but you will be doing the same steps and using the exact same stock removal skills as someone who started with a steel bar.

The either/or question isn't whether you make your blades by stock removal or forging, it's whether or not you want to forge at all ....
EXCELLENT ADVICE. Couldn't say it any better. Right on. If you want to forge, you need also skills in stock removal. It's like all or none.
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  #11  
Old 09-17-2011, 10:29 PM
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ckluftinger ckluftinger is offline
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I started with stock removal making swords, just for the heck of it. Never thought I'd get into knives. Once I started forging, there was no turning back. It's my favorite part of making a knife. There's just something about the mallability of hot steel, the sound of the hammer, the ring of the anvil. i LOVE it. And for the frustration - yes and no. I don't so much find it frustrating as I find it an educational experience. I'm not in a hurry - usually - to get a piece done, and sometimes I just go with the flow. So, if it turns out differently from how I had imagined at first, big deal. maybe the next one will be closer to what I expected. Right now, I'm working on a skinner I have on order for a guy who is the director of the wildlife federation (if that one turns out good, it could mean lots more business) and I'm on my third try. The first two worked out good, but not yet to what i have in mind. No big deal. I didn't commit to a time - hopefully before Christmas. Anyway, take it a bit at a time, and don't expect miracles. Be patient, experiment and don't be afraid to screw up. Be happy about it, if possible. It'll make you better in the end. Rome was not built in one day.


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Old 09-18-2011, 12:03 AM
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Eli Jensen Eli Jensen is offline
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Chris brings up an important point. Inevitably, you may start selling knives. For many, including myself, it is necessary. Knife making inherently becomes very expensive, and sales are needed to pay to make more knives.

My advice is that if you start selling knives, do NOT EVER commit to a deadline. It will be the end of the craft as something enjoyable. I've been shystered by this one too many times. Secondly, I also recommend not ever taking orders, only selling what you've already made. Now as you progress your comfort with these two issues may change as they should, but that's my $.02 for any beginner or even intermediate.
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Old 09-18-2011, 11:31 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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You might also want to consider whether or not you want to take commisions. I've read from more than one maker, some who actually left the craft for a while, who stated that knife making became very unrewarding after they started making knives to other's specifications.

Different makers have different ways of dealing with things but one of the most common seems to be the ability to say that they don't make knives the way the potential buyer wants. One maker will refuse an order if the buyer wants micromanage the design. Another will cancel an order if the buyer insists on making a down payment. Some makers just simply refuse to take orders. If someone wants a knife of a pattern that you often make you could always take his name and number and offer first refusal when you make another one. I agree with Cpt-Jens, don't ever agree to a deadline, which is not the same as saying that you could probably have it done by a certain date, but even that much can backfire.

Doug


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Old 09-19-2011, 08:45 AM
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ckluftinger ckluftinger is offline
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Maybe a bit off topic here, as Hotrod is just starting out and we're already telling him how -or how not- to sell his knives, but yes, the whole taking orders and commissions thing (not that I have done much of that) can take the fun out of it. I'm a chef by trade, and let me tell you once you have to cook to the specs of others, the fun goes right out of cooking (for a large part, anyway)! i guess that applies to many art forms. Few artists can truly only "do their own thing" and tell their buying public to take it or lump it. That's why we amateurs - and I don't mean this in a derogatory way - ("amateur" means someone who does something for the love of it - "amare", "amore", "amour", etc.) are lucky to be able to work at our own speed, making whatever we want. I'm sure those who do this professionally and have to rely on knife making as their daily bread would have other opinions.
BTW - getting back to your original question, starting out doesn't have to be expensive. Start with a few, well thought out tools, and modify as you get better and you know what works for you and your style of knife making. Some will tell you to rather wait until you can afford a quality tool instead of buying something cheap, and that is true, to a point. On the other hand, you may want to start with a cheap tool just to get you going and upgrade down the road. I'm sure you could argue that point. Me, for example, I started with a cheap drill press, knowing full well it was not very accurate (the chuck wobbles), but it worked for a while. Since then, I've bought a $3k milling-drilling machine - used, $500 - and boy, does that make a difference! Equally, i started with a $100 piece of junk anvil from China to start forging. It made a dozen or so good knives before it started to wear out. it did work, though. All the while I kept looking for the "real thing" and finally found a 175 lb Peter Wright. Again, a huge difference to the piece of junk I had before. It took me some time to be sure I wanted to stick with forging, and I wasn't going to invest a huge sum of money into something which might have ended up gathering dust in my shop in the end. This happens a lot with people taking up various sports - diving, skiing, etc. because so many people spend a fortune on gear right off the bat only to find out after a while that it's not for them. The sporting goods industry depends on this! Which brings me to another point - don't discount buying used tools (so long as you know what you are looking at). If I had the time and money, I'd go to more hammer-ins, or spend some time with one of the masters on this forum, even just to learn what tools are really a must have and which are nice-to-have-but-they-can-wait. Take Ed Caffrey's double-peen hammer. Now there's a tool I've been waiting for all my (knife-making) life! - In a perfect world, I would befriend a knowledgeable knife maker, and let him guide me through the steps, advise me on tool purchases, and show me the ropes - in other words, do an apprenticeship. In the meantime, though, it's trial and error, and this forum. Not bad, either...


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Old 09-19-2011, 09:27 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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As a full time knife maker with no other source of income for the past 12 years I agree with the comments about taking orders and working to the demands of someone else. Sometimes I just had to pass up an order. I never worked to someone else's schedule though but I did specify when a knife would be ready (about a year) and even that sometimes took the fun out of it. I also had to take a deposit on each knife in order to keep a steady cash flow but that does add a lot of pressure to deliver on time.

Anyway, that's all in the past now as I stopped taking orders over a year ago and just make what I want now and that's much better. So far, I've got enough people begging for knives that I haven't had to post available knives on my website yet but I will someday. On the subject of tools, I can honestly say that I've made knives with files and sandpaper, with cheap power tools, with my current fairly elaborate tools, and by forging. The amount of time required varies with each method but the results were all good enough to sell (not always for a lot of money but somebody always wanted the knife). It's important that you enjoy what you're doing. The only thing more important is to get started, make a knife by whatever means you can and then make another, and another ....


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