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Historical Inspiration This forum is dedicated to the discussion of historical knife design and its influence on modern custom knife work.

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Old 01-29-2007, 04:48 AM
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Wild Bill Hickok's knife

I know Roc would've had details for me in 5 minutes or less, but I'm sure someone else knows about this knife too.

In looking at this picture, I wonder if this knife has a guard. I seem to remember reading somewhere, probably here, that authentic western style bowies were more common without guards. I could be wrong.

Does anyone have another shot of this knife or perhaps photos of a replica?


EDIT: I may be nerd of the year for doing this, but I've been staring at a printed and magnified copy of this photo. I also did some research, and found that Wild Bill was six feet tall. Measuring from his back heel (since he's standing fairly errect in this photo), and allowing an inch for the low boot heel, I broke down his hieght into six equal segments and one of those 'feet' into twelve equal segments. I compared one of these 'inches' to the width across his knuckle (which on most people is about an inch), and everything seems to measure up. Using this new 'ruler' and close inspection of the pin/rivet pattern I have determined that this knife is 17" over all, with a 6" full tang or a nearly-full mortised tang handle, and an 11" blade. It is either a single lower guard or without a guard altogether.

This knife bears a strong resemblance to a seax. Someone around here once suggested that the bowie style came from the seax.


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Last edited by Andrew Garrett; 01-29-2007 at 05:47 AM.
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Old 01-29-2007, 04:53 AM
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Here's another Hickok knife.

Wasn't much for sheaths, was he? ...perhaps that's just for the photo.


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Old 01-29-2007, 08:05 AM
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The guy to ask about this is Chuck Burrows. I suggest you post a link to this thread on the Sheaths forum.

Remember that photography was quite a bit different in those days than what we think of today. Pictures took a long time to take and cameras were huge. So photos were very much 'posed'. Weapons, clothing, etc. often belonged to the photographer and used for props.


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Old 01-29-2007, 11:08 AM
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Handle looks similar to Jerome Anders' "dog bone" bowie in the KN Classifieds

Mike


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Old 01-29-2007, 01:22 PM
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Chuck Burrows Chuck Burrows is offline
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As Jack noted in these old time photos many of the items are props. Since Bill was an experienced plainsman I highly doubt he would have packed any knife without a sheath (the idea that he carried his favored 1851 Navy revolvers in a sash is hooey - not only do some of his holsters survive, but packing two pistols with a total weight of 5 lbs in a cloth sash is virtually impossible - I know I and others have tried!)

In the first pic the knife is most likely a common "butcher" knife of the period - the 5 iron pins in the handle are normal for that type as is the blade shape. Handles on those knives runs between 4.5-5" and blades ran on average from 6"-9" (they came even longer - up to 16", but the larger sizes were generally not used for "everyday" use). Those butcher knives were imported by the thousands from the 18th century onwards and J. Russell's Green River Knife Works (still in business) started producing them here in the states by the late 1830's to early 1840's.

On the other hand the N. P. Ames Company produced a "Bowie" in that same shape starting in the 1830's - here's a pic (it is NOT the knife carried by Bill - the picture of him was added to the montage to show a similar knife in period use):



The second photo - the knife is undoubtedly a prop since this photo is from Wild Bill's "theatrical" period - during 1873-74 he joined with Bill Cody, Texas Jack Omohundro, and others in Ned Buntline's play "The Scouts of the Plains".
I can scan a larger, clearer picture of Bill with the rest of the crowd if you can't find it online. BTW - the image you posted is reversed as were so many images of that period due to the type of camera used.

Anyway hope this helps - if you check out the my book list in the sticky at the top of this forum you will find several titles I suggested for studying the knives of the Old West - one not included in "The Bowie Knife Book" by Norm Flayderman............it sells for around $80.00 bucks but has over 520 pages of color pictures and info on the Bowie and it's predecessors


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Last edited by Chuck Burrows; 01-29-2007 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 01-29-2007, 04:31 PM
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Thanks fellas. As usual Chuck, you are a wealth of information.

I suspected that the second photo was reversed, but it was because of his belt. It looked to be very similar hense the same, but the gap was reversed as was the grab for the knife (i.e., lefty)

I wasn't familiar with the prop fact. I've been to photographers in theme parks and such where you can get an ol' timey picture taken and they used props. but it hadn't occured to me that they did that back then. That probably explains why so many of the guns seen in pictures have white handles--for contrast.

One other note of interest: The knife in the first photo looks to have six pins rather than five. Unless my eyes decieve, it has a 2-1-1-2 pattern. I'm sure this provides no "Ah-Ha!" factor to the discussion, but it's a detail nonetheless.

Thanks for the great history lesson! I'll see what else I can dig up now.


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Old 02-27-2007, 06:53 PM
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Ames blade

Chuck,
Does the Ames Bowie that you posted the picture of have a rolled/forged/etched pattern on the blade??

At first glance it looked like a utility knife, but if it has the blade decorated would it be more of a presentation knife or a piece made for a particular military unit??

Just curious; I feel an Ames Bowie repro coming.

regards,
dms
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Old 02-28-2007, 09:28 AM
Ed Fowler Ed Fowler is offline
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Notice how there are no 'crisp' grind lines in the Ames. I never noticed that before in their knives, will have to go back to the books to see if others were blended also.


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Old 03-17-2013, 01:52 AM
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I just happened to read a story earlier this evening in an old issue of a "Blade" Magazine and for what it's worth they described the knife of Wild Bill Hickock as a Camp Knife with a 10" blade and the knife they showed was a Green River Style Butcher Knife with a bit of a clip point, no hilt. How accurate the article was I don't know? It was a 1973 issue, no cover. The article was "The knives of the Mountain Men".
I don't know if Wild Bill even qualified as a Mountain Man?
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Old 03-17-2013, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Garrett View Post

EDIT: I may be nerd of the year for doing this, but I've been staring at a printed and magnified copy of this photo. I also did some research, and found that Wild Bill was six feet tall. Measuring from his back heel (since he's standing fairly errect in this photo), and allowing an inch for the low boot heel, I broke down his hieght into six equal segments and one of those 'feet' into twelve equal segments. I compared one of these 'inches' to the width across his knuckle (which on most people is about an inch), and everything seems to measure up. Using this new 'ruler' and close inspection of the pin/rivet pattern I have determined that this knife is 17" over all, with a 6" full tang or a nearly-full mortised tang handle, and an 11" blade. It is either a single lower guard or without a guard altogether.

This knife bears a strong resemblance to a seax. Someone around here once suggested that the bowie style came from the seax.
My wife saw me taking some similar measurements off a knife pic on our laptop screen and then proceeded to plot those #'s on paper and make a sketch of sorts. I told her I was probably the only "geek" in the US at that moment who was probably doing this. She agreed. But she said it could be worse. I could be out drinking in a bar wasting both time and money. And, at the least, I wasn't wasting money!

Tony Z (Measurement Geek)


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back, bee, blade, boot, bowie, camp knife, full tang, green river, guard, handle, knife, knives, make, man, mountain, pattern, tang


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