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High-Performance Blades Sharing ideas for getting the most out of our steel.

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  #46  
Old 02-09-2005, 07:38 AM
peregrine peregrine is offline
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Talking You are the expert Frank, not I.

That?s great! If I worked for them, don?t you know I would be saying so in my profile! (I?m still hoping to visit on your open house days.)

You, then, are the expert, I never claimed to be, but my point remains. When the swads (basic foot soldier) go into battle, they never carried the swords that the knights had. How many knights did such low caliber weapons kill? Many. It appears to me that sword and shield man would do pretty well with a modern day 440 stainless. Not as good as a carbon forged blade? Probably, but not junk either. For that matter, I believe a trained swordsman could take a plain bar of iron (unsharpened) and still use it effectively as a weapon.

It?s like a lot of old timers who have told me that the best deer rifle they ever owned was a 22. Killed hundreds of them for their own substance and the caf? down the road. So who am I to say that a 22 isn?t a good deer rifle? (I guess it depends on your perspective.)

Any way, there are great blade smiths amongst this group and the gauntlet has been thrown down. Oh, and they told me in the 80's that stainless steel blades could not be etched. Ha!
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Last edited by peregrine; 02-09-2005 at 08:07 AM. Reason: add sentence
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  #47  
Old 02-09-2005, 08:58 AM
Jerry Hossom Jerry Hossom is offline
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Well, I'm definitely not one of the great swordsmiths of any era, but I do make passable blades and am an avid student of the subject of blade performance. I want to observe something, and I think this is very important. "Performance" is a very difficult attribute to define in any blade. The results of that competition spell that out. On one hand you can certainly say that one sword in that competition dominated all others, cutting 23 tatamis. On the other hand, in one independent test in that same competition that same sword only cut 4 tatamis. In another test in that same competition that's the only sword that experienced "blade failure" (for whatever reason). From another perspective, what does cutting tatamis have to do with sword blade performance? I'm not trying to be an ass here, I'm just pointing out that it is very difficult to define tests which accurately measure how a weapon will perform in any setting or trial outside of its actual use as a weapon.

The same blade that cut through 23 tatamis could have been made of 440C at Rc60 and likely would have cut the same 23 tatamis. The balance point between where an S7 edge would deform or a 440C edge microchip on that same cut is a very fine line, which fine line is probably determined more by geometry than steel chemistry. How would they each fail if they encountered a nail? How would they each fail if they met an opposing blade, edge to edge?

Here's a bigger question. If we had that same sword in S7, 440C and S30V (all at Rc60), all with precisely the same geometry, which would cut those same 23 tatamis AND cut the nail with minimal edge damage (plastic deformation or chipping)?

BTW Peregrine, I read your website. David Boyes book and the stunning etched blades in the book were one of the things that got my juices flowing when I first started making knives. The other motivator in my beginning knifemaking were the writings of Bob Engnath, whom I met a few times and was fortunate to have gotten a couple of his custom tantos from. In my judgement, both have had a profound effect on this industry, each in their own way. Bob's passing was a great loss for us all.


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Last edited by Jerry Hossom; 02-09-2005 at 09:02 AM.
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  #48  
Old 02-10-2005, 08:13 PM
Fsawyer Fsawyer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peregrine
That?s great! If I worked for them, don?t you know I would be saying so in my profile! (I?m still hoping to visit on your open house days.)

You, then, are the expert, I never claimed to be, but my point remains. When the swads (basic foot soldier) go into battle, they never carried the swords that the knights had. How many knights did such low caliber weapons kill? Many. It appears to me that sword and shield man would do pretty well with a modern day 440 stainless. Not as good as a carbon forged blade? Probably, but not junk either. For that matter, I believe a trained swordsman could take a plain bar of iron (unsharpened) and still use it effectively as a weapon.

It?s like a lot of old timers who have told me that the best deer rifle they ever owned was a 22. Killed hundreds of them for their own substance and the caf? down the road. So who am I to say that a 22 isn?t a good deer rifle? (I guess it depends on your perspective.)

Any way, there are great blade smiths amongst this group and the gauntlet has been thrown down. Oh, and they told me in the 80's that stainless steel blades could not be etched. Ha!
My Site


I am no expert.. but I know a few people.. that are.

I can take an old saw blade and sharpen it and stab a man to death but I wouldn't call it a sword.

In today's MARKET most Collectors won't buy a stainless steel sword. IF your going for a high end sword.. which is what a true custom blade is supposed to be.. then you want to also go WITH the market... I am sure those that want to go against the market MAY find buyers.. who knows. All I know is that most high end blades are bought by collectors.. some are bought by SCA members.. which tend to be colletors also... but they use the weapons as well. Others are people that just love to have a great sword... no matter who buys it.. IF they do their homework.. they will find that MOST of the really GOOD sword makers ..with respectable name recognition do not use stainless steel.

IF your in a fight.. with a sword.. (yeah..like anyone really does that today).. an axe does just as well.


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  #49  
Old 02-10-2005, 08:30 PM
Jerry Hossom Jerry Hossom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fsawyer
...In today's MARKET most Collectors won't buy a stainless steel sword. IF your going for a high end sword.. which is what a true custom blade is supposed to be.. then you want to also go WITH the market... I am sure those that want to go against the market MAY find buyers.. who knows.
Well, now that's a mouthful. If you're saying that most traditional sword collectors won't buy a stainless blade, I'll probably agree with you. One of the most serious "Collectors" I know, however, posted in this thread and encouraged an S30V sword being built. There are a great many "custom" makers who don't make high end blades; you might want to visit a knife show to learn that. There are also a goodly number of sword makers who make purely functional blades at reasonable prices, and many of those are very traditional in their construction and performance.

And there are those who do indeed want to go against the market, if for no other reason than to find new challenges, learn new things, maybe achieve something special. For some, it's the best reason to make blades. Remarkably, some of us even "find buyers."


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  #50  
Old 02-12-2005, 12:20 PM
Sam Wereb Sam Wereb is offline
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I always see the same two problems in this kind of thread.

First, that knife nuts often seem to think of the highly alloyed stainless steels in only their hardest potential conditions. These alloys are famous because they are functional across a wide spectrum of geometries at their very highest hardnesses, 60 HRC and up, but they have so much more value than that one characteristic.

I can't see any reason why S30V or another good stainless cannot make a great sword blade, if tempered to a lower level of hardness. Further, tempering will optimize the set of desirable properties that can be imparted by the high alloy content: strength, toughness, et cetera.

I know that this may start to beg the question why to use one alloy over another and the answers lie in specifications and suitability and workabiltiy. But now I find that I am repeating what Jerry said about proper bladesmithing.

I wonder also about how shrill people can be about historical accuracy and their canard that great swordmakers don't use stainless. It seems to me that in the heyday of great swordmakers, a rustproof sword would been one of the most desirable swords of all and that bladesmiths probably thought about them all the time. I think that if a swordmaker could have made more than one, then he quickly would have become one of the wealthiest men on earth and rivaled princes for power.
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  #51  
Old 02-12-2005, 12:29 PM
Jerry Hossom Jerry Hossom is offline
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You know of course that Excalibur was definitely made with stainless steel. How else could it have survived stuck in that stone all those years without rusting? It was even thrown into a lake and returned as good as new. Probably S30V...


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  #52  
Old 02-12-2005, 12:32 PM
Sam Wereb Sam Wereb is offline
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Lol
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  #53  
Old 02-12-2005, 11:46 PM
dancbr929 dancbr929 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Hossom
You know of course that Excalibur was definitely made with stainless steel. How else could it have survived stuck in that stone all those years without rusting? It was even thrown into a lake and returned as good as new. Probably S30V...
Lol
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  #54  
Old 02-14-2005, 10:01 AM
peregrine peregrine is offline
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Thumbs up I believe you got something!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Hossom
You know of course that Excalibur was definitely made with stainless steel. How else could it have survived stuck in that stone all those years without rusting? It was even thrown into a lake and returned as good as new. Probably S30V...
Ya, Baby!!!

Sam, I agree...
"a rustproof sword would been one of the most desirable swords of all and that bladesmiths probably thought about them all the time."

It seems that the sword forum also agrees, since I didn't get very far into the forum to find that in history all the "great" sword makers were searching for better ways to protect their swords. They plated them with all kinds of metals, trying to come up with, what we have today... good stainless. Or so it seems to me.

Makes me want to make a sword too. Some cool design like one of Jerry's.

Last edited by peregrine; 02-14-2005 at 10:02 AM. Reason: add text
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  #55  
Old 02-14-2005, 01:41 PM
Ron Aggus Ron Aggus is offline
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According to the legend of King Arthur, the sword Excaliber, was given to Arthur by The Lady in the Lake! That is why the sword was returned to the lake. The sword in the stone was a different sword and only the man who was the true king would be able to withdraw it from the stone.


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Last edited by Ron Aggus; 02-14-2005 at 01:48 PM.
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  #56  
Old 02-14-2005, 01:46 PM
Jerry Hossom Jerry Hossom is offline
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Guess I confused that with the Disney version...


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  #57  
Old 02-14-2005, 02:42 PM
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McAhron McAhron is offline
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The real question is,is anyone going to make this guy his sword?


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  #58  
Old 02-14-2005, 02:54 PM
Jerry Hossom Jerry Hossom is offline
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What guy?


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  #59  
Old 02-14-2005, 03:33 PM
AwP AwP is offline
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The guy who started this thread.


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  #60  
Old 02-14-2005, 03:41 PM
Jerry Hossom Jerry Hossom is offline
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Oh that guy...

He's probably forgotten about it by now just like I did.


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