manila or batangas?

[nybble]

Ok, I'm curious if anyone actively prefers the latch to be on the safe handle? To be honest, I've never really had a balisong configured that way and have never really worked up the energy to switch configurations so I don't nkow what the advantages/disadvantages are.

I imagine that the latch doesn't really get in the way as much on the safe handle. Is that the only reason? Is one easier to latch/unlatch than the other?

[ZENGHOST]

Originally posted by nybble
Ok, I'm curious if anyone actively prefers the latch to be on the safe handle? To be honest, I've never really had a balisong configured that way and have never really worked up the energy to switch configurations so I don't nkow what the advantages/disadvantages are.

I imagine that the latch doesn't really get in the way as much on the safe handle. Is that the only reason? Is one easier to latch/unlatch than the other?

I've never kept one with the latch on the safe handle. The person I bought my Tach from had switched the latch to the safe, but as soon as I flipped it once I switched it. Don't know exactly why, but it just didn't feel right. I doubt it was for any reason other than I'd always had them with the latch on the bite handle so I was used to that. It can be messy if you're used to one way and switch to another.

[FivePointOh]

Every bali I have owned and played with have been Batanga. I don't think I would like the Manila style. It would just feel strange. I once had someone come into my house and say, "Oh butterflys" and proceed to pick one up and flip it Manila style. Needless to say he bled over my coffee table. "Hey, the latch is on the wrong handle." he said.

[ExamonLyf]

Hey Felix ...long time no see.....(teasing)...:cool:

Another good question. No wonder you are a Moderator..., and that is a good question.

From what I've been told by those that came way before myself in "Bali-Ville" <~~ believe it or not there are some (mostly dead...lol)..., the Manila Latch became very popular with serious Martial Artists in the Philippines..., and also.., those that studied with certain instructors that became very well known.

The reason was fairly simple. Some instructors in the late 40's an onward..., felt the Manila latch afforded an extremely quick latch-drop to a reverse Ice-Pick grip (obviously true)..., and they also taught slashing styles that were based on that grip.

My very first FMA instructor (although I studied Hwa Rang Do primarily).., was pretty much a knife-nut type.., and suggested students carry one knife with a Manila latch.., and the other with a Batangas latch. In fact.., that thinking effected me enough to actually order a Custom Bowie from Jody with a Manila latch (which I still have)..., and I would guess that's a fairly rare knife. Of course.., these were profiles that were not daggers.., which for most people negates the concept of a "Safe Handle".

It was also quite popular to use latchless Balisongs in the MA's..., and even some Filipino makers did make some pretty nice ones (I'm talking 50's-60's)..., no longer now (that I know of).

There is no doubt at all that for pure manipulation..., the Batangas latch is the way to go...(i.e., for "Tricks").., but very few of the folks that teach knife fighting care much about finger twirls, Y2K-Roll-Overs, Aerials, etc..., nor where the latch is at any given point.

Their emphasis is getting the knife "OPEN".., solidly gripped..., in an appropriate offensive/defensive stance...("defensive" added for political correctness...lol). ~~> Knife fighting is not about "Defense" in my opinion.

Anyway.., that's about it from my standpoint.., and the current "drift" of enthusiasm is certainly all about manipulating and having fun with the design.

[relayer66]

to amplify what pete said.
i find that the manilla latch does let you get the knife open easier going into the right position, and makes it easier to latch open with the thumb when in reverse grip. however the latch gets in the way of manipulation, getting caught between your wrist and the handle.
however, the bm spring latches solve this problem. the latch is kept out of the way.
what i really want to do is switch my bm47 to manilla spring latch. i'm thinking about taking it apart anyway for some polishing and possibly home anodizing (i'd love to have gold handles on it). it's a little beat up as it stands.

[nybble]

Thanks, Pete. I'm curious, though. What is it about manila that makes it better than batangas for defensive situation? And for the flip, why is batangas better for manipulation?

Relayer, interesting, I'd love to get your thoughts on it once you make the switch!

[ExamonLyf]

Originally posted by nybble
Thanks, Pete. I'm curious, though. What is it about manila that makes it better than batangas for defensive situation?

Felix.., actually.., in my opinion....-nothing-.., but I have some friends that would disagree because of their training and orientation to knife fighting. As in any domain.., "change" from a style practiced and/or taught for years (by a particular instructor)..., is deeply ingrained in the motor-memory of the user.

The thinking I have heard repeated endlessly revolves around two basic concepts that I'll rename for clarity. "Sneak-Attack"..., and "Frontal Assault".

With many traditional Balisong profiles (not including daggers).., the reverse Ice-Pick grip is considered ideally suited for thrusting the blade straight down between the clavicle and scapula (i.e., where your neck meets your shoulders, and in front of the trapezius muscle group) when approaching from the rear.

Keep in mind we are not talking "Defense" here.., we're talking about "assasination", employing the off forearm, wrist, and hand, to immobilize the head in a "dorsal tilt" (rearward)..., thrusting the blade straight down parallel to the spine of the targeted (and unlucky) ~~~> receiver. Arrrrrgh..., you asked...,and along those lines.., another arguable advantage is that this quick and relatively simple motion leaves you (the attacker) with a slightly pronated (knife-bearing) wrist, which facilitates pushing the blade across the jugular area of the neck. The reverse grip makes the sharp edge proximal to this group of veins that return blood to the brain, and the consquences don't need explaining.

For "Frontal Assault"..., or in movie terms...."A Fair & Square" knife fight..., I see no advantage personally.., unless the user has practiced/sparred with her/his knife in this grip style..., and feels it is best for both slashing and stabbing. Some do.., and as I mentioned.., I've known at least two instructors (and I think 3?) that espoused one saber-gripped knife and one reverse ice-picked.

To me.., it's simply a matter of what works best, and interfaces most strategically with the style of fighting the user has mastered. So many variables become involved in explaining comprehensively, that we could have a marathon discussion of who agrees with what... ..., and never reach a conclusion, since there is quite a bit of disagreement in the MA Community regarding linear "Squared-Up" styles, vs. more circular eclectic styles. I'm not gonna go there.., because I don't want to turn a Custom Knife Forum into a "Practical Tactical" seminar..

Originally posted by nybble
And for the flip, why is batangas better for manipulation?

The quick answer is simple in my mind..., mostly pertaining to "comfort" and "confidence". The vast majority of videos, and instructional material related to this knife rely heavily on ricocheting techniques, which are obviously a necessity to perform some of the more fancy stuff. Although the addition of "latchgates" has dramatically changed the "nuisance level" of the latch while doing continuous motion manipulations.., I personally..., still find the latch annoying when it's on the handle I'm holding most often, and would rather have it Batanagas style for cleaner manipulations.

Note: I'm prejudiced on this because I prefer -No Latch- most.., but I'm certainly in the minority on that, and I do love to look at (and buy) the new innovative latched versions. This is primarily for collecting, aesthetics, and simply to have them in honesty.

Since many of my "All-Time" favorite Balisongs have no latch.. .., I'm not really a good person to ask about latches. Like many.., I've certainly sat around and done our ritual 1000 Latch-Drops. They are not only fun, but have a neat feel on a really good knife.

In the "Practical/Tactical" domain I'll take latchless every time simply because less stuff in my way when I'm scared to death...., is better! ~~~> For Me!.... 8o

[nybble]

Thanks for that answer! Very interesting stuff to think about, as always. And I'm with you - latchless all the way!

[navajo]

Felix, what Pete said.
Only advantage I can think of for the Manila latch; knife closed and latched, pop the latch with pinkie, single flip opening, you have the edge of the knife up instead of down which would allow one to cut from bottom to top.
But thats the only advantage I can think of.