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  #1  
Old 11-03-2015, 12:19 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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1080 vs 1084

Hey guys...i been busy trying to finish a damascus billet (i seriously screwed up somewhere) after i etched to see what i had on the last weld/draw out about 60% of the steel just dissapeered (not a exaggeration at all). i thought maybe the acid could be responsible even tho i cleaned it but some one else told me it might of come off in slag but that didnt happen any other time any way going to try and finish whats left of it and try again.

Also so i have been doing some reading regarding type of steel specificly 1080 vs 1084 everything thing i found was technical stuff like % of the diffrent compounds like carbon. But what i want to know is how they actually act in the real world. I have never used 1084 only 1080 are they both prity much the same as far as forge welding, heat treating temps ect... i am thinking about ordering 1084 as i need more steel just wanna know a lil of what to expect
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  #2  
Old 11-03-2015, 12:42 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Those two steels will be functionally identical for your purposes, get whichever is available.

Concerning the damascus billet...you're beginning to see why I wanted you to make a blade while you still had some steel...


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Old 11-03-2015, 12:58 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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Ray ok yeh that was problem could only find 1084 and the 15n20 from the same place.

YES i do now definitely...still a lil upset ( i wouldnt be IF i knew exactly what i did wrong to correct it) but i dont know i still tend to think it was the acid somehow just because that was the only thing done diffrent from the previous welds and draw out. I would tent to think if it was the flame not running rich enough (as i was told) it would have happend from day 1 right? i didnt change the burner or flux or how i went about doing things nothing but...etching so idk i am going to try and scrape together a small blade from what i got left and hey worst case try and learn and try again.....i think i said at the beginning of this that at the VERY worst its a learning experience.....Oh so as i said i need more steel deffinitly to even think about trying this again and i think i am going to just forge a knife out of just 1084 first then try again with the damascus. But i do still have a little i have about 4inches on 15n20 1 inch wide and 0.065 thick. Also i have about 6 inches of 1080 same 1 inch wide and .187 thick. I am going to order more today but would it be a decent though to add those pieces to what i got left to give it some more mass so maybe i can scrape a decent size pocket knife out of it?
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Old 11-03-2015, 01:21 PM
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Are you sure the acid is the only thing you did differently? I'm under the impression that this time you went for more layers than last time. While it is true that you get a more complex pattern as you add layers it is also true that you lose a lot more steel, especially if your heat control is less than perfect(that's related partly to that rich flame but it doesn't stop there). And how could your heat control be perfect when you haven't learned to properly heat treat a blade yet? You're doing damascus before you have any significant experience making plain blades. There's a good reason why we don't recommend that path to learning - you'll get there eventually but it will take a lot longer and cost a lot more.

If I read you correctly you said you are using 1/16 15N20 and 3/16 1080 for your damascus. When you try again try to get 1/8 1080 (or 1084). You're working by hand with small billets so if you want much pattern at all you need to keep your layers closer to the same size.

You can try adding the additional steel to your dinky billet but you'll probably end up with a little bit of pattern stuck on a larger piece of plain steel but maybe that's what you have to do.

You said you were a little upset by your results, that's natural of course. We don't start off trying to make damascus because failure is almost a certainty if you haven't made a few plain knives first. You have now experienced some of the problems that go with making damascus but you still haven't found the second of the two problems I alluded to earlier. Maybe you won't have that issue, let's hope so, but until you make a blade from your billet we probably won't know ...


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  #5  
Old 11-03-2015, 03:21 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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Ok well your half right i have never heat treated a blade in a GAS forge. I have made a couple blades including heat treating in a coal forge or rather 2 coal forges one was my cousins then i made a lil BS coal forge and (i didnt go as far as trying to break the blades to see how good they are but it works holds a edge fine). I am not saying i have done alot i made one that was done with help from a cousin he is no expert neither. i made one on my own out of a old nicholson file (i did kinda a mix of forgeing and stock removal) and one more that was a gift for my father out of the 1080 steel that one was stricly stock removal and heat treat.
Yes you are right about the layers started at 7 then cut in 3 and 3 again.....also technickly it was more than seven layers to start. i cant remember if it was 3 1080 and 4 15n20 or the other way around but as you said the 15n20 was alot thinner so every time i went to make a layer of 15n20 i used 2 pieces insted of one to make up for the thickness.. is that ok cause i am in that spot again i cant find the 2 anywhere in the same or close thickness.
and yes besides adding more layers (wich i had already done the same way) i did absolutly nothing else different and the acid so i dont know
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  #6  
Old 11-03-2015, 04:03 PM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
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I hand forge my Damascus, and can tell you after about the third drawing the amount of billet loss is about 40%. The more time it takes to draw it out or complex the procedure the more you loose. I expect a 60% loss for a Maidenshair billet so I start out with enough to do 3 knives. That's part of the reason why you want to start out with as many layers to reduce the time spent forging. All that black slag that comes off your billet is steel. Having a proper air/fuel ratio helps but doesn't stop the loss. Also remember that the more surface area you have the greater the loss, so draw out only as far as to have enough to do your fold (or 3 way).
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  #7  
Old 11-03-2015, 04:26 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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No harm in doubling up on the 15N20 if it suits the pattern you want to make. I've never had any that was more than 1/16" either.

The adding more layers part is significant. That means more re-heating and as James has expressed that means more steel loss especially if the heat isn't carefully controlled. Nice to know you have finished some blades already but this is a different forge with different requirements. Also, in time we'll get to the point where you can see that just because a blade holds its edge doesn't necessarily mean the heat treatment is anywhere near correct......


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  #8  
Old 11-03-2015, 07:28 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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Thanks JM maybe it was just normal loss you spoke of....i would never have guessed that i thought it would me a steady loss all the way through...as i said at least i learned a few things. could using too much flux cause any problems?
Ray.... www.usaknifemaker.com has 0.130 (but NOT in stock right now) but i think thats about 1/8th right? also when i etched that billet do you guys think i should have grinded before back in the forge....i cleaned it and used baking soda (i read that neutralizes the acid) but i didnt grind it before i stacked and welded again could that be a problem. dont get me wrong i am sure it was more than one thing probily normal loss as JM was saying maybe the flame or atmosphere MAYBE the etch too?? do either one of you guys know where i can read up on controlling the atmosphere inside the forge. the only stuff i have see is just pictures coparing the various atmosphere's Also whats the deal with cable damascus? it looks like the pattern it produces is no where near as sharp as a pattern from a billet. Then i have seen arguments both ways on one being easier than the other. but the same general concepts and actions are the same right?

One more question lil off topic but ya know when you see decorative blacksmith work and it has a black "right outa the forge finish" how is that accomplished. i made a could decorative brackets to hang my swords on the wall. Nothing crazy just playing around with bends, twists, reverse twists flattening certain areas using small square stock and round stock. now first during clean up grinding it clean was a task near and in the twists. i had to use a dremmel with one of those chain saw sharpening bits (small round cylinder shaped grinding wheel). But that cause the steel to be silver and shiny wich is fine for these brackets i put that meuseam wax (that i use on carbon sword blades) to keep from rusting. It is one of my friends b-day soon and i have a picture in my camera of her 1 year son in the captains chair at the intrepid meuseam in nycity (its a WW2 aircraft carrier turned mueseam cool place planes on the flight deck all sorts of military equipment in the hanger deck and now they got one of the retired space shuttles) any way she wanted me to print this pic but i didnt have ink in the printer and now she forgot. So i wanna make her a picture frame (if i can) also a steel rose was sugested and i found a FAIRLY simple design so if i have time i going to try both but the frame first. Any way i am rambling sorry. I want this to have that black "forged" look. not painted tho. some people have said bees wax turpentine and boiled linseed oil. but i also read that seals from rust but wont give that black color. Do you guys have any idea. this girl is a important person to me we are not a couple or anything but i do want to try and make this and spend the time to do in the right way and make it look as good as possible. Thanks guys
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Old 11-03-2015, 07:43 PM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
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Wow, all over the place. lol. If you are using a gas forge the atmosphere is adjusted by using a choke or adjusting the blower. The goal is a neutral flame. You'll never totally achieve the perfect atmosphere. Even if you did scaling would still happen when you took it out. Speed is your only defense against the material loss.

For the "black" look, at a red heat brush with a steel wire brush until it's black. There are a lot of concoctions and mixtures. Whatever you decide to use, you want to steel to still be hot (500 deg or so) when it's applied. There is nothing that will stop steel from rusting, if it's in the weather you'll still get a patina.
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Old 11-03-2015, 07:58 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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JM thanks yeh few different topics there i know (partly thats how my brain works lol trust me alotof the time i wish i wasnt going 3 different directions at once but every once in a while its usefull) also the past 2-3 days i answer one question and that created 5 more. thanks for jumping in it helped. Do you know any good place to read and get some good info about the atmosphere and nuetral flame and all that.
just brush when hot? you mean with one of these concoctions right? not just a dry brush? and what do you do when whatever your making is finished you grind/sand/clean up? and then heat again and apply whater concoction?
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Old 11-03-2015, 08:02 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Yes, .130 is about 1/8" (.125). No, the etch isn't responsible for the steel loss unless you left it in there over night. Yes, you should have ground the steel clean before restacking - not doing that will lead to that second problem I have been alluding to which is why you need to make a blade from that steel.

Cable is popular but don't let anybody tell you its easy. The pattern is subtle because its only one kind of steel but some people like that subtlety. Trust me, from where you are right now you should not be thinking about cable. But, when you are ready James is the man for that discussion .

As for that black oxide finish, that's for blacksmithing and I ain't one. I will hazard a guess though that the truly black finish has more to do with exactly what steel they are using than anything else (hint: they aren't using blade steel). If you look at my KITH Bowie picture you'll see I have a very black guard on it. That's 1018 with Cold Blue on it ....


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Old 11-03-2015, 08:13 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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ok.. so what i did before was really take a look at the size of the billet i screwed up and really trying to scrape any blade from that was not going to happen it would have been paper thin. not saying someone better than me couldnt do it but i wasnt even going to try. so i took that extra 15n20 and 1080 stacked it and forge welded it on just to add a lil mass to it (this way i feel like maybe ill get something out of it) tomorow i am going to just forge it into a blade shape that what you mean when you say i need to make a blade from that steel? ok guys i am falling asleep here while typing i have been up WAY to long talk to ya later
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  #13  
Old 11-04-2015, 05:56 AM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
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For your patina, get a steel welders brush. The kind they clean their welds with. Heat the metal up to a bright red heat then start brushing it until it's black. Then get some bees wax or past wax and dip or apply to the steel. If you want to make it real interesting you can use a brass brush to add color.
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Old 11-04-2015, 09:03 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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Jm nice thats perfect i have MANY of those welding brushes i stoped counting awhile ago. they are everywhere in the basement and garage. i got a few brass brushes to. the only wax i have on hand besides meuseam wax (wich is to expensive to use for that) would car wax work specifically carnauba wax... i have a bunch of that both paste and liquid. or would i need bees wax or furniture wax like johnsons. No turpentine or linseed oil?. And what happens if the piece is to big for 1 heat do you first brush one section at a time reheating in between sections or brush and apply wax to one section at a time with reheats between that just wondering cause if you did one section would reheating for the next section ruin the finish on the previous section?
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Old 11-04-2015, 12:04 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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hey guys.. quick question say you got a small billet that is between 1/2 and 3/4 wide and say 7 inches long.....whats the best way to stretch the width? i tried but no mater how i hit it and tried a cross pein trying to push it sideways but it always streches more length ways than width ways. would you have to restack and weld to get a more square ish shape to start with? i would rather not do that....right now its just a lil to narrow for a knife its not to thick but i could thin it out a lil more and i dont need the whole 7 in. in length
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