RIP Lt. Gen Hal Moore... Vietnam legend... Randall user

[BoBlade]

Joe,

You can quote from whatever book(s) you want. People are infallible. It's just a fact. I believe in physical evidence such as this knife and sheath themselves as opposed to memories that are subject to lapses. You must be blind not to see where this piece fits in chronologically. I know, I know: You can't ever go back on anything you've stated in the past. I get it.

Ron

[crutchtip]

Ron =

I didn't say it, Gaddis did, long before you and even me thought about collecting Randall Knives to the degree at least I ended up doing. I just posted the text, so why are you getting on me?

Are you saying he misread Bo's journal? Are you saying Bo made incorrect entries in his journal? Are you saying that Bob didn't understand what Bo said to him all those years ago? Are you saying Bob's notes were incorrect? Are you saying Bo didn't or couldn't remember events? At any level?

I really don't understand.

[Jacknola]

Well From what Joe posted, i guess we can say that Col Compton's knife is one of the first 29 fighters made? That is interesting to say the least.

I don't know early RMKs. I do know that one knife at issue has fancy decorative spacers, an ornate handle, and a high keeper Moore sheath, etc. The other does not. I also know that the earlier RMKs all had the same genre ornate spacers, etc, and the later ones morphed away from that to a military spartan look. Just from logic and thd law of similar properties, most people would therefore associate the ornate handle with the older knives. To do otherwise would require some serious mental gymnastics and an explanation involving shop construction method against the grain of evolution. That explanation is not needed in the obverse case.

And Joe...You are quoting Gaddis, but then inferring, deducing and assuming as if those inferences, deductions, assumptions were the word-of-Gaddis himself...but it seems you are ignoring the physical evidence. That is not the way science works, or investigations (which I do for a living). I know of several key things Mr. Gaddis was wrong about, some of which he freely acknowledged.

Whatever...What I don't know is why adopt this confrontational tone? What has it added? I say check egos at the log-on icon and change the tone to add respect. I'm claiming this to be my line and Gen. Moore's.

[jeepster]

I have seen at least one more photo of Col. Moore with the wood handled Randall.....maybe a few more. I have not seen any photos with the stag. I hope his son can find some more photos maybe showing the Col. with each knife.

[crutchtip]

Originally Posted by Jacknola

Well From what Joe posted, i guess we can say that Col Compton's knife is one of the first 29 fighters made? That is interesting to say the least.

I don't know early RMKs. I do know that one knife at issue has fancy decorative spacers, an ornate handle, and a high keeper Moore sheath, etc. The other does not. I also know that the earlier RMKs all had the same genre ornate spacers, etc, and the later ones morphed away from that to a military spartan look. Just from logic and thd law of similar properties, most people would therefore associate the ornate handle with the older knives. To do otherwise would require some serious mental gymnastics and an explanation involving shop construction method against the grain of evolution. That explanation is not needed in the obverse case.

And Joe...You are quoting Gaddis, but then inferring, deducing and assuming as if those inferences, deductions, assumptions were the word-of-Gaddis himself...but it seems you are ignoring the physical evidence. That is not the way science works, or investigations (which I do for a living). I know of several key things Mr. Gaddis was wrong about, some of which he freely acknowledged.

Whatever...What I don't know is why adopt this confrontational tone? What has it added? I say check egos at the log-on icon and change the tone to add respect. I'm claiming this to be my line and Gen. Moore's.

Jack =

Not confrontational at all. I simply repeated what Gaddis said. Nothing more and was assailed by my friend as though I had committed a carnal sin. So Bo's memory failed him and both his journal and Gaddis are wrong. That is the only "inference" presented in this discussion.

So no, I am not inferring anything. This is straight from Bo's journal Jack. Not an educated guess, not and interpretation, not a supposition. With secondary support from interviews with Bo to further support journal entries. So if Ron or anyone else wants to refute that, I suggest they do it quoting you "the way science works, or investigations"

I have examined the stag Commando, yes that is what it is, and it is clearly explained as I have outlined and referenced in previous posts what it is. It was made After the Zach knife. That is a fact. NO FIGHTERS OF ANY TYPE WERE MADE PRIOR TO THE ZACH KNIFE. That is from Bo's mouth and Bo's journal. Why is that such an issue? Because certain folks want to believe otherwise?

Even to further this discussion, Gaddis also clearly states that knife production, ANY knife production by Bo was "nil" because of his CAP duties. So when Zach walked into the shop when Bo was on leave to see if a fighter could be made, June 1942, the Randall legend was born.

So from 7 Dec 1941 to June 1942 very, very few knives if any were made. If only 27 knives were made after the Zach the following six months to 7 January 1943, it is telling. It is not like RMK was a well know company with a web site and national exposure. It was pretty much a one man show in a garage in an orange grove in a small town.

I am at a crossroads with the antagonism that still festers up when it comes to discussing RMK's, particularly older knives. Revisionist history seems to be the norm used to suit a certain position, and if something doesn't line up with another persons train of thought, even when that thought is refuted by viable evidence, the person presenting that evidence in a discussion is vilified. Strange dynamics still exist here in the RMK hobby and it seems some have not moved past it.

[BoBlade]

Joe,

Originally Posted by crutchtip

Ron -

I don't think that the Commando you posted that belongs to a guy we know pre-dates Mitchell's Zach fighter. In fact, if reading Gaddis, page 69, he pretty much says most of the Commando models were made in the period of mid to late 1942 into early 1943 when he was experimenting with fighting blades.

First of all that knife is not a Commando. I invite you to post a photo of that knife together with any "real" Commando and point out the similarities. I don't think you will do this because your claim is ridiculous. It's put up or shut up time, Joe.

Originally Posted by crutchtip

I am going with what Gaddis states in the chapter beginning on page 65 and also from memory about conversations with Bob. According to him, there is not a journal entry describing a double hilt fighting knife prior to the the Zacharias fighter, the very first fighter Bo ever made. He even alludes the that during the entry to the chapter.

Apparently you didn't bother to knock the dust off your copy and read it , so I will put it here:

"During the last half of 1942 and into the first couple of months of 1943, Bo experimented with a few combat knife designs besides the Zacharias-Randall style. At first some men had him modify his catalog Models 6 and 7 hunters for combat duty. This consisted of sharpening the blade on the top edge and using a double hilt. The handles were of stag but usually not crown. He adopted the term "Commando" to denote these earliest of his double-hilted combat knives".

You refer to your memory of a conversation with Bob stating that there were no double hilt fighting knives made before the Zacharias (After he went through every entry in Bo's journal from 1940 through the 1st half of 1942?). That's not in the book, Joe! I dispute that claim of yours. Also, why are you posting excerpts from Bob's book about knives made from the last half of '42 when my claim is that the knife is earlier? Again, ridiculous.

[crutchtip]

"During the last half of 1942 and into the first couple of months of 1943, Bo experimented with a few combat knife designs besides the Zacharias-Randall style. At first some men had him modify his catalog Models 6 and 7 hunters for combat duty. This consisted of sharpening the blade on the top edge and using a double hilt. The handles were of stag but usually not crown. He adopted the term "Commando" to denote these earliest of his double-hilted combat knives".


I acquiesce Ron, you are correct. The paragraph above is null and void. It is based on inaccurate journal entries, meaningless conversations, and illogical assessment.

Oh, and I am a liar to boot with only a slight remembrance of any past conversations.

[Jacknola]

This case is getting interesting to say the least. LTC Steve Moore, Gen. Hal Moore's son, sent me a picture of his grandfather, Col. Compton, the original owner of the knife. Guess who is in the picture...



The inscription reads "Colonel, I'll remember this and our other enjoyable times together, Always, 'Bo'." Apparently Col. Compton was good friends with "Bo."

And this is a lesson of sorts. When you think you know everything, something comes along that says you don't. The only way to explore is to exchange and interact. One question leads to another... but the questions won't be asked if some are so sure they already have the answer that it creates a negative environment. My two bits. So, Joe, please quit being arbitrary and confrontational. You've stated your position and it isn't agreed to...that is fine. But your opinion is no reason to stake out a position and declare it the word-of-god.. because it isn't.

Im going to see if I can find out how Col. Compton and Bo knew each other. Also, LTC Steve is going to ask his brother, Col. Dave Moore, if he was given Gen. Moore's knife when he graduated from Ranger school...So the search for the DSC knife goes on. In the meantime, Col. Compton's knife, what a cool find.. thanks to LTC Steve.

[crutchtip]

Thanks for the lesson in etiquette Jack. The opinion is not mine, it is Bob Gaddis' directly referring to Bo's journal. As much as you would like to side with Ron, you cannot deny what that one paragraph states., and I have yet to see anyone offer anything different or to the contrary. I am not even bringing up other passages, my own or others research, because that alone refutes it all.

Funny how this whole thing started when I called the knife a Commando, which it is the earliest example I have seen, and is perfectly described in that passage, yet I am the butt.

Apparently Ron does stake out an opinion and does declare it the the word of God.

I came over here thinking I could contribute some info on the 14 thread, some of it from my usually very, very cloudy memory, this time with conversations with Pete Hamilton, and it seemed ok then. Now, not only with conversations with Gaddis based on Bo's records in his own handwriting, and it isn't ok. It isn't ok because the guy that walks on water here says it isn't. This confirms why there is such a fracture in the Randall collecting community, and it isn't from the other forum.

To address Ron's contention (not the first time he has insinuated this) that Bo's memory was suspect, from Gaddis:

"As I uncovered more original records with each visit, it became apparent that some of the often told stories about Bo's knives didn't match with what he had recorded at the time. This even included a few stories that I had recored in our numerous interviews. Bo and I discussed this discrepancy on two or three occasions and always came to the same conclusion: we would consider what he had recored at the time it happened to be factual, not what he remembered 40 years later. I was to use his stories, remembrances, and anecdotes to give life to the bare-bones facts from the old records and correspondences."

That pretty much sums it up.

an fyi, the spacer stack pattern on Tune's knife is the same stack pattern on the Commando. count 'em. Shocker. Who woulda thunk!?!?

Oh and Jack, it appears that last photo was taken in Florida.

[Ta2bill]

I appreciate the work that you do Joe, as well as Jack, Ron, Sam and countless others in the Randall community.

I try to place principals before personalities, because we ALL have our character traits, some stronger than others. (insert my name here also) I enjoy face to face interaction with many of the collectors out there much more than on the internet. Others, not so much. I for one feel that if I had to like everybody here to be able to collect Randall's, I would sell every knife I own before doing so.....lol

My favorite saying on this hobby is this:

We buy things we don't need,
With money we don't have,
To impress people we don't like.

Thank you Joe, Ron, Jack, Sam and many others for your enthusiasm.
TB

[Jacknola]

It is amazing how this has developed. It appears that Col. Compton was a close friend of Bo Randall... that is a very young Bo Randall in that picture. What a happenstance find. It raises the possibility he made that knife for Col. Compton personally. It would be interesting to know "when."

It looks like the spacers may have a couple of metal ones.





For Sam, looking at the close up of blade, it does appear the tip was broken off at some point, losing about one half inch or so. But that is no sure thing.

[crutchtip]

Jack -

many of the early knives were made solely by Bo. A tell tale sign is small handles. Bo had smaller hands and particularly when doing finger grips, he would work on it for feel. I have some early finger grip models that are usable but wouldn't be my preference because they feel a bit slight in the hand for my taste.

An unlisted "option" from the shop to this day most don't even know about is large hand. A handle will be made in a larger diameter if requested.

I put that knife made in 1943, probably by the Springtime of that year. Note that a fancier spacer stack as found on both Tune's knife and the stag Commando have disappeared.

The subject knife appears to have two thin metal spacers. I have a knife that has about the same spacer stack as that knife, but a few more in quantity. Probably made not too distant from each other. I don't know how to post photos here but it seems they have to be stored by a photo service, not on this sites web host.

Bo had many "friends" being the affable man he was, and taking folks fishing was commonplace.

[Jacknola]

Joe, thanks for the info. I wonder if there is a time line when metal spacers disappeared? Also... when did Bo grow his signature mustache? He is clean shaven in that picture. That fishing trip was apparently charter boat deep water, marlin stuff. Pretty good stuff.

I don't pretend to be WWII RMK expert. Instead, I concentrate research on Vietnam era, broadly interpreted. And I really don't want to argue months ... (except perhaps Vietnam). I will observe that Ron's spacer stack and knife handle looks materially different than Mitchells. What that means is another story.

Re: WWII RMK study - I would change my focus if I every found out my father, Lt. Gene H. Williams, carried Randall into Normandy during D-Day parachute drop. He was in the 508th PIR which formed at Camp Blanding, Florida, in 1942. He would have been subjected to the same RMK acquisition peer pressure, originating from desire to emulate General Jim Gavin, as many airborne officers were. One example is General Singlab, who acquired his Randall as a young Lt. while his PIR unit was in training. But I doubt that will ever be discovered as such a knife was not returned with Gene Williams' belongings after he was KIA.

I asked LTC Steve Moore about Col Compton's military service. He has the major outline of Col Compton's career but will look to see further. it would be interesting to see if and when he was stationed in Florida.

Photos: I always used a host site, Photobucket, because I post on some rug boards, etc. However, Photobucket is holding millions of research lines, from RMKs, stamps, baseball cards , etc., hostage trying to force millions of collectors who have been posting research for 15 years to pony up $400 per year. It is outright extortion. All my research lines have been corrupted.

I have begun to use imgur.com... and am pleased with it so far. Easy to use, free. Ron and others use fototime, which charges a small yearly fee. There is a way to post on this sites server. Bill uses it... but it requires being logged in to see the posts and a click link to see the photos. Instructions are in the headings. Ciao.

[crutchtip]

Metal spacers disappeared in earlier 1943 in my opinion. Like I said, springtime? It seems the switch from knives I have had to the red white blue stack (and a couple of variations of that pattern) was pretty much standard not too long after his orders started to climb and the patriotic streak blossomed.

As for the spacer stack on the Zach and the Commando, if you look closely and count the number as well as the pattern, again going by photos even though I have looked at both knives thoroughly but not together, they are very close.

Tune's knife obviously saw more carry/use than the other, shows more age and wear, so that would explain at least a portion of the visual difference.

In this period, late 42 thru early 43, it is a matter of months. That is the way it is. There was a quite a bit of evolution as what was to become the "fighter" evolved. The very early hump gave way to what appears as a more slender later style grind in profile with a dropped clip (brass link period) to later return with a heavier/thicker grind in the monel link period and beyond.

I was going to do a photographic study on these early grinds but time has been short for such projects.

[tunefinK]

For what it's worth, the owner of the fancy spacer knife and I exchanged emails over a year ago regarding the block initials carved in the sheath and the similarity to the block initials carved in the butt of the original Zach and mine. Was this something Bo was doing during the late 42 period?

One thing is for sure, my Zach and the original were made within a few months of one another in 1942 and both have carved block letters in the butt which were filled with some sort of red resin.

I don't have photos handy...