WW2 Model 2 on ebay

[samg]

There is an offering for an early Randall model 2 on eBay

http://m.ebay.com/itm/231738917474?_mwBanner=1

There is an interesting shade around the hilt that makes the hilt look discolored. Any ideas what this may be?







Thanks, Sam

[samg]

Interesting to see the forward stamp on these early Randall's. The blade flat was much smaller then. Any other observations?




Thanks, Sam G

[cochise]

I think it is fake, the leather handle is not right. the color on the hilt could be a bad solder job, too much heat discolored the brass. I don't know for sure without looking at it in person.

[samg]

It's interesting that you mention the solder job. II don't think solder work was Bos gift from what I've heard.



What is it about the leather that makes you feel that it may be a fake Cochise?

Thanks, Sam

[Jacknola]

Well, it has an odd feel, but I think it is authentic. The handle has seen linear wear as have the spacers... which is a little odd... but the spacers LOOK Ok. The discolor may just be tarnish... the brass nut on the hilt is also pretty corroded. I'll see if I can raise BoBlade... he is the guy who could help here.

[TexasJack]

The quality makes me wonder if it's a fake. I am NOT an expert on Randall knives or could even pretend to be. I'm just old and jaded.

The discoloration may be from trying to clean off all the corrosion. Looks like they did a lot of cleanup on the blade as well. Oddly, the maker's stamp wasn't affected by all the corrosion that ate everything else up. Or did they deepen the mark a bit?

My in-laws are in the antique business and they tell me the very worst thing you can do to any antique is to try to clean it.

[Jacknola]

The blade has been double stamped, which is not that unusual. But, the lower line doesn't seem to align all that well with the upper line. This is what causes a question mark in my mind because I cannot imagine a mechanical method that would produce this result, or why it would be employed. It may just be an illusion of sorts.

BoBlade is the man we need....

[samg]

Interesting that you mentioned the stamp Jack, good eye.. Here is a good close-up of it, and its definitely crooked.

[BoBlade]

Hi Jack,

I haven't checked the forum of late, so David called and gave me a heads up on this one. There aren't that many WWII stilettos with the stamp on the blade to compare this one to. I've only owned one and it's in Sheldon's book on page 18:



The ONE thing that all blade stamped stilettos I have seen have had in common are wrist thong links (and not through holes) because the blade stamping was early. I can refer to others as well: Pages 33,35, 37 and 39 in Bob Hunt's first book "Randall Fighting Knives in Wartime" and page 119 in his 2nd book "Randall Military Models". However, just because I haven't seen a blade stamped stiletto with a through hole doesn't mean that they don't exist. I don't think anyone knows for sure when stiletto stamping switched to the ricasso and when links phased out.

There are some other "oddities" that concern me a bit:

1. The condition of the spacers and leather washers are MUCH better than the condition of the blade. However, this could easily be explained away if the blade was stored in the sheath.
2. The discoloration of the hilt (as was mentioned). IMO there is no way to determine if this was caused by high heat or not.
3. The fact it doesn't have an accompanying period sheath.

I am OK with the spacers and the stamp.

If I had to make a guess, I would say it's legit. But like Cochise, I would have to have it in hand to make a determination with any degree of confidence.

Best,

Ron

[Jacknola]

Good stuff Ron, thanks. I've closely examined the stamp and I think it is legit, for what that is worth. It is a double stamp and the shape of the blade where it is stamped is concave, so it is possible the misalignment is an optical illusion. It is also possible that the two lines were stamped separately because the concavity would have precluded getting a good strike with the whole stamp.

My main question is the spacers. The look legit but were WWII spacers like this?

[samg]

Hi Jack. I am a bit confused about your statement about the stamp. If I am not mistaken, the entire stamp, both lines and scimitars are all part of one stamp, not 2 on separate stamps.

Here is a picture of the stamping process on page 19 of Pete Hamilton's book.

[Jacknola]

Sam, this is what I'm talking about. This stamp was struck twice. You can clearly see it on the left side top, but also on the right side in the scimitars. And the strikes were not parallel to each other but at an angle...look at the strike of the scimitars on the left and the R of Randall.

Furthermore, what is interesting is that the two strikes of the stamp may possibly have done with different dies, possibly even different size, though it would take some overlay work to confirm that.

Also, one strike was apparently more solid on the top line and one more solid on the bottom which gives the whole ensemble an off-center look. I speculate that the second strike was at an angle because the first strike did not imprint the top line solidly because of the concavity.

But if you REALLY blow up the picture, you can see that both stamps look good. I doubt that a counterfeiter would go to this trouble. Regards...

PS I'm not really qualified to pass judgement on WWII knives, but with my limited knowledge, this blade looks pretty legit.

[samg]

Well, we know that Bo ordered the 2nd stamp in 1943. Looking at the blown up stamp, look closely at the "A" in RANDALL, the shallower what looks like background A seems to cross over the top of the dominant deeper A. This appears to me to be the case on the RANDA letters. Look close and you see that lighter strike is on top! How much sense does that make?

I would love someone from the shop to weigh in on this.

Regards, Sam

[Jacknola]

I would love someone from the shop to weigh in on this.

Be careful what you wish for LOL.

The picture you show is of the power stamp. In WwII and for many years the stamp was applied by hand with a hand-held stamp die and a hammer.

The stamping progression on this blade is a relatively simple thing to visualize. The stamp was struck twice. First strike was parallel to the spine of the blade but only the bottom portion of the stamp was clear. Because of the concave shape of the blade the top part of the stamp was not square to the metal and was thus only partially visible because of the angle.

The second strike delivered seconds after the first. The stamp was slightly canted, no longer parallel to the spine.. and the orientation of the stamp was so that the top portion was square to the metal, and the bottom portion at an angle because of the concavity.

Hence you have two stamps, one that was clear on the top but light on the bottom, and one that was the obverse. I don't have my engineering graphics tools here at home or I would draw a picture, but is all clear at least to my compulsive engineering mind.

Regards.

[samg]

Your right Jack about watching what you wish for.
Anyhow, I do see your point about how the stamp was struck twice. Heavier pressure on top line (RANDALL MADE)first strike, heavier pressure on bottom line (ORLANDO, FLA.) on second strike, resulting in
lighter RANDALL MADE strike on top of the heavier strike top line.

Much easier to see it and make sense of it in your mind than it is trying to describe it in words.

I have taken a stamp from one of my WW2 Hunters, sized it as close as I can to the Stilettos stamp, for comparison.

Now if we could just make sense of the discoloration on the hilt. It's almost as if there was a sleeve of some sort over the handle, resting on the hilt for quite some time.







Regards, Sam G