Randall knife-escutcheon plates

[Jacknola]

Randall did not list the oval escutcheon plate until the 18th catalog, and earlier catalogs showed the oblong plate in the famous Randall models group photo. However, the oval plate had become standard much much earlier. The profile of many of the knives in the chronology listed above is one proof. Here is another... a magazine article published Jul, 1964 using a picture of a early model 16 ... with a combat guard and saw teeth to boot.

[BoBlade]

Originally Posted by dax0007

wBl BOblade ...thank you for sharing that fake model 14 and thorpe..
very interesting I've actually never have handled or seen a fake randall before ..

looks interesting I can definitely see a difference though however it's easy for me to say that since you were kinda enough to tell me they're fake.. the thorpe has a productionlook like a odd plasric material fake ivory in any event thanks for sharing those two pictures I've definitely learned something again I I've never had the opportunity to handle a fake Randall so when you tell me its fake its easy for me to judge.. to pick out the differences I wonder if I would have been able to tell without knowing.. we should start a fake randall thead

My pleasure. The problem with pointing out why a knife is fake is that the faker gets educated and doesn't make that mistake the next time. This is why you do not see these differences publicized. One good indication is if the knife is not paired with a legitimate sheath. The best way to learn about Randalls is to handle as many as you can while noting as many of the details as you can.

Best,

[Jacknola]

Nothing seems to be cut-and-dry with RMKsl (except the change in blade stamp in early 1966). Here is something I found that raises some interesting questions. I'll address them by editing this post later, adding my thoughts and opinions.

Those of you who are interested can have the fun of analyzing this picture in the context of this subject, and determining what some of those questions might be. It might also be a good exercise to develop a plausible story for this evidence, plus alternative explanations. We could then form an idea of what additional information we might seek to add weight to the explanation.



Regards, Jack

[Elfstone44]

Black sheath = Vietnam

[jeepster]

The sheath above isn't black. Also why would a black sheath equal Vietnam?
Thanks.
Ronnie

[Jacknola]

Ronne, a goodly percentage of vets in Vietnam dyed or shoe-polished their sheaths black to treat the leather and protect against mold ... it is one unscientific way to judge if a knife was actually carried in country... However, the practice was not limited to Vietnam. Korea vets and soldiers in between wars also did this., but in Vietnam it was almost the norm. In fact, the Randall catalogs of that time period actually recommended shoe polish as a treatment and protectant for the leather sheaths.

RE: the Thorp with the inscription. The knife looks pre 1960, post 1955, all features including the flutes, plate, etc. But if the date is the date of acquiring, then there is overlap (which is probably correct) between the oblong escutcheon plates and the ovals and could push the date of the Delrin handled 3-7 forward into 1961, (which could in fact be accurate of course).

HOWEVER... researching this produced some interesting data. On another board, two collectors of vintage knives, Mitchell Harrison and Joe Dorsky, discussed the disconnects with this knife a couple of years ago. While no conclusions were reached, there was no sense that the date on the hilt represented the date of production. Additionally they had questions about whether the sheath was original and seemed to express discomfort with the authenticity of the package. I'm glad to find that discussion because something about the package bothered me too, at first glance.

The dealer who offered this knife for sale is suspect ... in my opinion. I've seen other of his knives that I suspected had altered blades, changed sheaths, etc. I tend to discount the history of knives he offers and what he says about them. I've seen a lot of incongruities in the Randall knife packages he has offered in the past.

Therefore, while the date on the Thorp knife obviously has a meaning, it does not necessarily mean that is the date the knife was produced or bought. I suspect that knife is a late '50s knife with a newer sheath. And that sheath has an east facing stamp... an anomaly.

Regards, Jack

[dax0007]

Jack, Very interesting here... I sent you a PM...
DID you say that HANDLE IS DELRIN of the knife u just posted?? IF so know for sure that handle is DELRIN??
REASON I ASK because from my observation and owning 2 1960s (MID) Delrin Brassback and Toothpick have solid WHITE DELRIN handle(no creamy looking white handle) .. ALL THE WHITE DELRIN I SEEN is like a off white or even a ltad off white..

Unless the pics u provided had a change of light it CLEARLY shows a IVORY traits.. PLUS I swear i see little CHECKS are small cracks in the pics.. LOOK at the 8 Oclock pic of the 4.. The pic which only shows the handle(not guard) i clearly see a CHECK running from the COOLIE CAP about 1/4"..

I agree just because the GUARD has a DATE e from the USMC does not mean it was made them.. The guard looks 1950s to me.. tad thicker than what i am use to seeing but not super thick like early 50..

Let me know if i am blind! DELRIN does not do that..

[Jacknola]

No that is not Delrin. Confusion among chat lines...

The date of the advent of the oval escutcheon plate was originally prompted by the existence of an oval plate on that 3-7 Delrin knife. Based on that knife and a couple of others, I had postulated that the change from oblong to oval had occurred in late 1960 ... But then this bowie knife showed up sporting an oblong plate with a hilt scratch-dated in 1961. Hence the discussion whether that Bowie hilt-date is germane to the timing of the switch in plate style. I further wondered if the date were accurate, how that would effect the dating of the 3-7 Delrin knife, possibly moving it from late 1960 into 1961.

This might seem a little silly, splitting hairs over a feature, wondering if it was 1960 or 1961. But the truth sheds light on some practices in the shop and also on the escutcheon plate, something that has not really been closely looked at before, so far as I know.

I would speculate that there was overlap in the use of the oval plate and oblong ... but with absolutely no science or facts to support that assumption.

Regards, Jack

[dax0007]

Ahhh I see.. Its pretty clear during the early 60s Randall shops makers were in a transition from the 50s.. In my opinion the mid 70s to mid 80s were not as many suttle differences.. I am sure there is a good answer for these differences from the early 60s.. But only a shop guy could answer that, however its CLEAR old practices are sometimes in a transition period. Hard core collectors fight that..h

I remember a forum argument over a mint 1968 or so Randall 18 with rivited rough back sheath non crutchtip.. Everyone said it was a mid 70s because the BUTT CAP had the short screws instead of the long screws..Everyone fought it said it cant be late 60s Randall 18.. Randall shop said it could easily be late 60s with a different BUTT CAP COMPASS or different sheath. so many things can happen..

Maybe that knife was reworked..

[Jacknola]

I've recently used the information about escutcheon plates to help date a King Faisal set. And I've developed some additional information. Here are the key points as I see them now.

Prior to about early-mid 1960, the escutcheon plates were not uniform... they were oblong, ad-hoc and custom to each knife, but gun-metal or nickel-silver colored. Example below, probably late '59 early '60.



NOTE: the time span between the above knife and the one pictured below probably covers the change from ad hoc oblong escutcheon plates to standardized oval-rugby football shape

In early-mid 1960, RMKs introduced the oval rugby-football shaped plate. This was silver colored. The catalog did not change the wording of the escutcheon plate option until the 18th edition when they began listing the plate as "oval." Example below:



Above is Ron Mathew's knife and his description was as follows: "very early '60s because of choll cut," ... oval escutcheon plate, Heiser-HKL Randall 'west' stamp on sheath.]

I have found some evidence that while the oval nickel-silver plate rapidly became the standard after its introduction in about 1960, there may have been some overlap of the occasional use of oblong shaped escutcheon plates possibly into mid-1961 or so.

As best I can determine, the first brass escutcheon plate appeared in late 1965. Perhaps there were some earlier ones, but I haven't found one. This is also the date approximated by Sheldon in his book for the appearance of the brass plate. Note that the availability of the brass oval plate was not cataloged until the 18th, published in 1967 for knives to be delivered in March, 1969.

Here is the first brass oval rugby-football shaped escutcheon plate that I've found. It is on a huge presentation Bowie given to Dick Van Sickle by Randall documented in December, 1965. I would welcome any input that could shed light on the any earlier use of the brass plate... or documented knives from the 1960 transition period.

Van Sickle Bowie

[Sligo]

Terrific article ! Just like your research on the evolution of the coolie cap ......

[jeepster]

Originally Posted by Jacknola

Ronne, a goodly percentage of vets in Vietnam dyed or shoe-polished their sheaths black to treat the leather and protect against mold ... it is one unscientific way to judge if a knife was actually carried in country... However, the practice was not limited to Vietnam. Korea vets and soldiers in between wars also did this., but in Vietnam it was almost the norm. In fact, the Randall catalogs of that time period actually recommended shoe polish as a treatment and protectant for the leather sheaths.

RE: the Thorp with the inscription. The knife looks pre 1960, post 1955, all features including the flutes, plate, etc. But if the date is the date of acquiring, then there is overlap (which is probably correct) between the oblong escutcheon plates and the ovals and could push the date of the Delrin handled 3-7 forward into 1961, (which could in fact be accurate of course).

HOWEVER... researching this produced some interesting data. On another board, two collectors of vintage knives, Mitchell Harrison and Joe Dorsky, discussed the disconnects with this knife a couple of years ago. While no conclusions were reached, there was no sense that the date on the hilt represented the date of production. Additionally they had questions about whether the sheath was original and seemed to express discomfort with the authenticity of the package. I'm glad to find that discussion because something about the package bothered me too, at first glance.

The dealer who offered this knife for sale is suspect ... in my opinion. I've seen other of his knives that I suspected had altered blades, changed sheaths, etc. I tend to discount the history of knives he offers and what he says about them. I've seen a lot of incongruities in the Randall knife packages he has offered in the past.

Therefore, while the date on the Thorp knife obviously has a meaning, it does not necessarily mean that is the date the knife was produced or bought. I suspect that knife is a late '50s knife with a newer sheath. And that sheath has an east facing stamp... an anomaly.

Regards, Jack

Jack I'm not gonna argue with you.....I'm not equipped for that. But of all the photos I've seen of Randall's in V/N I can't recall one that was black.
Thanks.
Ronnie

[Jacknola]

Originally Posted by jeepster

Jack I'm not gonna argue with you.....I'm not equipped for that. But of all the photos I've seen of Randall's in V/N I can't recall one that was black.
Thanks.
Ronnie

Hi Ronnie... well, my information is strictly anecdotal, not statistical or data driven. In 1967-68 I polished my sheath. My brother polished his sheaths in 66-68, the catalog did recommend shoe polish, and I know a lot of people in my organization that had Randalls over there that did it.

Plus, in 1968 or so the shop started offering black dyed sheaths. RMK of that time was an very savvy marketing organization. Mr. Randall spend considerable effort on publicity, and outreach to the military. And I suspect the offer of a black sheath was in response to the feedback that a great many users were polishing their sheaths black.

Truth is though,that the polish was not necessarily to change the color, but could have been just as much about treating the sheath to prevent mold. Anyway, there is no science behind my statement, just personal observation of what SF did, not other organizations ... so you may be correct.

Regards.

[jeepster]

No I'm probably wrong especially if you saw a lot of SF guys doing it.
Thanks.
Ronnie

[Jacknola]

Perhaps just our circle of guys polished their sheaths and we all encouraged each other, while the larger community did not.

I received an inquiry about my statement saying the catalog of the period encouraged this. Here is part of the 17th catalog, 1964-5 or so just for information. The other catalogs of that time period pretty much said the same thing. Regards.