Scagel research

[Coutel]

Hi guys.

I would like to make something in the style of Scagel. I have never seen one in the 'flesh' so to speak, only photographs.
..so I have a few questions.....(

What type of grind was popular?.....it looks like a convex but I am not sure.

I like the style and curves of the blades, especialy on some of his hunters. The belly of the curve disappears into the guard, so no actual ricasso so to speak. It looks like the guard is just sitting on the belly of the curve........are there square shoulders that the guard sits on or does the guard just slide down and rest on the belly?

The handle design interests me as well. (leather washers topped with antler)....I have used leather washers before but with a pommel that screws down and so compresses everything together, but Scagel seems to use just one pin through the antler to secure the handle......am I correct?

I would love to see and handle one ....maybe one day I will get the chance....in the meantime, I want to make my own.

Thanks.

Kevin.

[GANNMADE]

have you seen the ones with a folder at the other end?I have some old books that shows some.Now the Randell made knives museum as a collection of them it is in florida Also Tru-bal has a collection.hope this helps

[Chuck Burrows]

Her's a recent CKD hread on Scagels - http://www.ckdforums.com/showthread....ghlight=Scagel

I have used leather washers before but with a pommel that screws down and so compresses everything together, but Scagel seems to use just one pin through the antler to secure the handle......am I correct?

Kevin from all the images I've seen that's what it looks like. HINT: You can precompress you leather washers by stacking them on a piece of all thread and compressing between a set of washers and nuts. You can even preglue the washers on the all thread, just use a releas on the thread such as petroleum jelly or paste wax.

Hope this helps.

[Coutel]

Gannmade.....I have that book....thats what inspired me.

Chuck........What a GREAT link...lots of Scagel knives AND in color......... Scagel s knives are even more awsome than I imagined.

The pictures will help me a lot but I think I am kidding myself if I think I could make anything look like the original........

The knife I am making will have Scagel in mind ....if it turns out any good then I will post it.

Many thanks.


Kevin.

[Mace]

I have made a couple in this style. Check out "My new knife" in the display case forum. Before I put it all together I take the leather washers soak them in acetone for a couple of min. then squeeze them between two pieces of steel in my vice(one at a time)---let them dry. Once I start to put it all together I use two hour epoxy on everything(make sure you wipe off all your metal spacers with acetone too). I'll put on a few and then compress them down with my (Guard soldering Jig). I'll keep doing this untill I get to the last couple of spacers. Sinch it up with the jig and let it dry. Here is a hint , don't glue the last spacer, this way your jig wont stick and you can pull it off before the final step. Now that it's all dry( you still have a couple of spacers and the antler end to put on) unclamp it and get set up to put the end on. Make sure everything fits. drill a hole in the antler for your pin. At this point I use five min. epoxy---glue up the last couple of spacers, put your antler on and then clamp the whole thing together. I then drill the whole into the tang thru the hole I have in the antler(make sure you have this lined up good) glue the pin and put it in. Now you can unclamp the whole thing and your ready for grinding in a few min.
Hope this helps.
Mace

[Coutel]

Thanks Mace......thats helpful.... why do you soak the leather in acetone and compress them?


If any one is interested at looking at some more Scagel knives, I just found this link....

http://www.scblades.com/knife_librar...agel%20picture

scan down to 'Scagel'.

Thanks.

Kevin.

[Fox Creek]

Great link Kev. ... I have always thought the leather/antler handled Scagel knives had fairly radically tapered tangs, and that the guards, which are fairly thick, have a corresponding tapered slot which wedges tightly on the tang. there is no shoulder or stop that they rest aganst against. I could be wrong. I call the grind style a "natural grind." Notice the lack of a sharply defined plunge cut, the slight convexity, which rolls to the spine as well as the edge. Notice the blade shapes, these flow from the forging process; there is no "style" imposed on the materials, it all flows from the process. It's a natural freaking process aesthetic going on. Very beautiful. and very functional . some of the knives , such as the plainer ones with the full tang handles are very boxy and strictly utilitarian, reduction to essentials.

[Tbrown]

Coutel

Scagels are a hidden tang they have shoulder for guard fit against
the guard sets at slight angle the handle is above spine of blade. they have a convex grind. Ihave some pictureson website

Troy Brown

http://www.elkcreekforge.com

[Mace]

Kevin,
Regarding the compresion of the leather. This is something I read about a long time ago. They said to use water and let dry for a couple of days. I thought the acetone would work better. It dries faster and you don't run the risk of mildew. The leather is like a sponge, it has air in it, by compressing them it makes them thiner. So when you get the knife all put together and pinned they will eventually expand a little making the handle supper tight. Use fresh belts when grinding the handle so as to not BURN the leather. I really like the leather handle. They just feel nice and warm in your hand. Good luck and post a pic when your done!
Mace

[hammerdownnow]

Nice knives Troy. Thanks for sharing them.

You all should have came to the Scagel hammer-in. The ABS people were some of the nicest folks I have ever met.

[Coutel]

Originally posted by Fox Creek
Great link Kev. ... I have always thought the leather/antler handled Scagel knives had fairly radically tapered tangs, and that the guards, which are fairly thick, have a corresponding tapered slot which wedges tightly on the tang. there is no shoulder or stop that they rest aganst against. I could be wrong. I call the grind style a "natural grind." Notice the lack of a sharply defined plunge cut, the slight convexity, which rolls to the spine as well as the edge. Notice the blade shapes, these flow from the forging process; there is no "style" imposed on the materials, it all flows from the process. It's a natural freaking process aesthetic going on. Very beautiful. and very functional . some of the knives , such as the plainer ones with the full tang handles are very boxy and strictly utilitarian, reduction to essentials.

You were thinking along the same lines as me about how the guards fit...but maybe they are on shoulders?
You give a very good description of the 'natural grind'...I like that.
I forged a small knife out yesterday.....but having had the opportunity to see more photos of the originals I can see that mine is far to flat and does not have the natural grind that you describe...Next time I will play more with the covexity of it, especialy along the spine....but for now, I will finish this one off and concentrate on guard and handle.

Troy...thanks......You knives are superb. I thought I had searched far and wide for knife maker sites on the internet and found most of them but I am always suprised when another one pops up.........You have a good site.

Mace......That makes sense.......I will try that.

Kevin.

[Tbrown]

Kevin
my SCAGEL's i got all my information from DR Luce he was Scagel's Physican in Scagel's later years of life. DR Luce has a very
large collection of Scagel knives and is a Scagel historian. My patterns are off the original Scagel's from DR Luce.
Troy Brown
ABS Journeyman Smith

[Chuck Burrows]

Notice the lack of a sharply defined plunge cut

That's not exactly true - previously I thought the same thing but after seeing some of the scagel's in that previous link I had to change my mind. Look at the the first knife image on that post and then later at the two full tabg knife images - all three of theses havea definite plunge grind although the ricasso is almost non-existent.

So when you get the knife all put together and pinned they will eventually expand a little making the handle supper tight

Mace the problem with the expansion though is that it means the leather is absorbing moisture. This means they are not sealed completely and will/can continue to expand and contract. The moisture may also leach through to the tang and cause rust - a major problem with many early leather washer knife handles. I've repaired a lot of these over the years and the tang is often almost rusted away.
My suggestion is to completely seal the washers with something like Watco Danish Oil or a satin Varathane.

Another option to pre-compressing washers is to get sole bends. This leather is extra thick and is designed for shoe soles. It has been compressed at the factory to a very hard/stiff consistency. It is hard enough in fact that you can cut it on a bandsaw. It is also stuffed with waxes and oils to help prevent water absorbtion but it is not waterproof and needs to be sealed like above.
Hope this helps.

[Coutel]

Originally posted by Wild Rose

.....(snip)My suggestion is to completely seal the washers with something like Watco Danish Oil or a satin Varathane.

........

That was going to be another question I was going to ask...sealing the washers.

Would usual wood sealers work. You mention Danish oil....I have some tung oil.

What about shelleck crystals?

[Mace]

Chuck,
I have been sealing my handles with boiled linseed oil and then a coat of wax, plus when I put it all together every spacer and the tang is coated with epoxy. Don't you think the epoxy will help to keep moisture out?

Reg. Natural grind. I like the term. This is how I have been grinding my knives and it just seems to have a nice flow to it. Some people grind this type of blade up and down on a wheel instead of on a flat platen.

Reg. Dr. Jim Lucie:.... I emailed him last night and asked him if he new of some good info on Scagel that we might be able to get our hands on(other than the booklet "Scagel the man and his knives") and also If he was working on a book of some kind. I hope he is working on one seeing how he's the authority on Scagel and all. I'll let you all know if I hear back from him.
Wish I could have went to his hammer in last month, maybe next year.

Anyone going to the Moran hammer in in Oct.?
Mace