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Ed Caffrey's Workshop Talk to Ed Caffrey ... The Montana Bladesmith! Tips, tricks and more from an ABS Mastersmith.

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  #1  
Old 07-08-2008, 06:02 PM
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2 more press questions

Ed,
1. What is the electric motor horse power rating on your press?
2. What is the GPM rating on your hydraulic pump.
I'm getting ready to start building my press. Looking at 5 hp electric motor and 11 GPM pump.

Thanks

Bing
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  #2  
Old 07-08-2008, 06:27 PM
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Motor: 5 hp, 3450 rpm

Pump: 11.5 gallons per minute

You've gotta have a fast turning motor (3450 rpm), and then the HP rating has got to be high enough to handle the power requirements.

My press also has a 6" dia. cylinder, and with the above listed components the ram moves approx. 1" per second.


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  #3  
Old 07-08-2008, 06:47 PM
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Hey Ed,

I recently picked up a hydraulic ram that has 5" cylinder (1.75" ram diameter, 22" cylinder length) and since I know nothing about hydraulics I was wondering how the cylinder diameter will affect the speed. If I used 5hp motor, 3450rpm, with 11.5gpm should I expect faster speeds or slower...or the same? Think the speed difference will be drastic? I watched your damascus video (great video!) and your press looks to be about what I want so I'm hoping to get close to the same stats.

Sorry for jumping in your thread Bing, I was just thinking of asking these questions and this looked like a good spot to ask.

Thanks,
-Jason
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  #4  
Old 07-08-2008, 08:33 PM
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Thanks Ed,
I'm on the right track I've already ordered a 5 Hp motor @ 3500 rpm. I've got a couple of sources for the pump. I just wanted to make sure on the pump GPM to get the right amount of power.
Ram will be 6" bore x 8" stroke.

Jason,
if you go with a 5" bore you will have a little faster cycle times. You are displacing less area with the same amount of flow.

Thanks

Bing
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  #5  
Old 07-08-2008, 11:05 PM
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Hi Jason!

The smaller cylinder will increase the speed of travel. The biggest concern for me when folks want to use smaller diameter cylinders is the line pressures. Call me a overly cautious, but most available hydraulic hoses only carry a 3000 psi rating. My press, with the setup I described often times hits 2200 psi.

Not sure what the formula is for figuring pressure without looking it up, but the reason it concerns me so much is that during my military career I worked in a hot water heating plant. We were running hot water (230F) at 110 psi. Whenever a leak occurred you could hear it, but not see it. We would go down the line(s) were we could hear the whistling of the leak with a corn broom, sweeping it up and down in front of us as we went. When the straws were cut off the broom...you'd found the leak. Now imagine something with 3000 psi behind it.....and a pin hole......it would take your hand (or whatever body part was in the way) off like a laser.

The worst disaster that I have heard of occurred a number of years ago in Arkansas. An individual who tried to use a log splitter as a forging press, but "beefed up" the system with a 10hp gas engine and a 13 gpm pump. The lines and fittings were not designed to handle the pressures, and they're still not sure what killed him.....the thing literally blew apart and nearly ripped the poor fool in half.

Just be very careful with what you build, there are a lot of massive forces involved with a hydraulic press that most people don't comprehend. Educate yourself, and be aware of the dangers involved. Whenever you build something, build in in such a way as to expose yourself to as little danger as possible when using it. All of the lines on my press, with the exception of the pressure gauge are located on the opposite side of where I stand when using the press. That way if something lets go, there's a steel beam and other masses of metal between me and it.


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  #6  
Old 07-09-2008, 12:41 AM
Dakota11 Dakota11 is offline
 
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in my build which im still working on i had planned to enclose or seal of the hoses in a way that if they did go they wouldnt take me with thm. not sure what thickness of steel i would need to avoid this but was thinking along the lines of doubling up schedule 80 thick wall pipe that i can get for free so run like a 3 inch pipe inside a 4 in pipe and then run the hoses threw the inner pipe. anyways im rambling but is kinda waht im working on.
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  #7  
Old 07-09-2008, 05:41 AM
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Back when I was married, never mind, my brother-in-law got "injected" by a stream of hydraulic fluid into and up his forearm.
Over time, a long time, his fingers and then hand slooooooowly dried up and fell off starting at the finger tips.
Be careful with what we do.


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Old 07-09-2008, 08:44 AM
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My Claiborne press uses a 5" cylinder, about 5 hp 3450 rpm motor, and 11 gpm pump, and set to operate at 25 tons. While all of the above is absolutely true, I didn't want to see the impression created that 5" cylinders were a bad thing per se. Remember also that every backhoe, bulldozer, and other similar type of equipment has many exposed hoses. That doesn't mean they aren't dangerous - far from it - but it does mean that if you do as Ed suggested ("Educate yourself, and be aware of the dangers involved.") you'll be safe enough. Mostly, that will mean simply using hoses and fittings that are high quality and properly matched to the pump you use and putting everything together correctly (don't run the output of the pump into something that won't allow the fluid to pass through, fluid must always circulate when the pump is running).

From what I've seen, the hydraulics that we are most likely to be exposed to operate in the range where 3000 psi would be maximum. The 5000 psi systems are considered 'high pressure' and have different fittings and hoses. Apparently, we're playing in the bush league pressure wise. Most of the line pressures we actually use would likely fall into the 1500 psi to 2500 psi range. The hoses and fittings are rated at 3000 psi with at least a 10% safety margin (3300 psi). None of that negates any of the good advice given above, it just means that reasonable care in your build should provide an acceptable level of safety....


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Old 07-09-2008, 02:16 PM
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Gotcha, Ray.
Ed, do you find that 1" per second fast enough, or do you sometimes find yourself wishing youhad used a 5" so it would be atiny bit faster?
I'm going to have Merle help me set mine up - what size do you think he'll recommend?


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  #10  
Old 07-09-2008, 05:05 PM
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Good common sense must be engaged during the design stage of your press. I used a 6" bore cylinder on mine and a 4" bore also. I can change dies between the two cylinders or keep different dies on either one and just switch from cylinder to cylinder as needed. The 4" cylinder is faster but the big one has much more tonnage of pressure using the same hydraulic pressure in the lines. All my hydraulic lines are on the opposite side of a massive beam from the operator in case of something not nice happening. Take a look on the shop tour at billsblades.com if you want.


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Old 07-09-2008, 05:48 PM
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Karl: I've used presses that are faster, but found that I didn't really care for them, especially if the press had a higher tonnage. There's always some slight delay when you let off the controls, and with the faster presses, more often than not, I wind up going further than I had intended. The ones that really mess me up are the ones with two stage pumps. You hit the second stage and get a big "push" and what seems like a slight burst of speed (it really doesn't speed up, it actually slows down, but it always seems to happen when you least expect it), and I wind up wrecking something.

Ray: I know where you coming from, and the reason I preach about the presses and hydraulics is because few folks who are first getting into a press do not understand or realize the forces their dealing with. I've got a couple of patched holes in my shop wall where I goofed up when I first delved into a press, and had I been in the way, the pieces that made those holes would have gone right through me! Pressures, line types and ratings, lateral forces, and center of force are only a few things that can get you into serious trouble if you don't think about them or understand them. Caution and experience is what kept us "old farts" around as long as we've been!

Bill: AMEN!!


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  #12  
Old 07-09-2008, 06:20 PM
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Talking

Ed,
What's that old fart statment about! HA HA If we are talking about age you still a young man. now if we are talking experience yes I will agree.
Okay this speed thing is something that seems a concern. 1 inch per second seems plenty fast. It looks to be a good level of control in the video. Sometimes that may be a little fast but can be overcome by easing on the control valve.
Last winter you remember when I told you about my 20 ton hydraulic jack press. Now that was slow. ( about 1 inch per minute) It did work and still there were dangers. With all the info stated above and on other posts we all should be around a long time to be old farts. HA HA

Bing
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  #13  
Old 07-09-2008, 07:23 PM
Burke Burke is offline
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Here http://www.surpluscenter.com/techhel...name=hydraulic is a good placeto go to get your questions answered.


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  #14  
Old 07-09-2008, 10:08 PM
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The key is to know what you are working with and what it is rated for.

Do not use water pipe fittings and expect them to hold up to high pressure. Do not use cheap hoses and if you are running higher pressures, take a step up in hose grade.

Remember that as hose diameter increases, the pressure rating of the hose decreases. As an example, for a weatherhead 100R2 hose, the wp of a 1/4" hose is around 5000 psi but a 3/4" 100R2 hose doesn' even have half of the wp of the 1/4" hose. A 100R12 hose in 3/4" gets the pressure back up to 4000 psi.

Hoses also have a minimum bend radius. If the hose is bent too tight, it can blow out on the outside of the bend.

Hydraulics are a very safe and efficient means of power transmission but the potential is there for them to be very dangerous.

A note on Karl's comment on oil injection into the body. This is very real and very serious. If you have oil injected into your body, get to the hospital immediently. It could save the affected body part or your life.

I worked as a hydraulic/diesel mechanic on mining equipment for 15 years before transfering into my current position and could go on and on but I will end with this:

If you have fear of your system, you need to educate yourself more or consult someone, and you should ALWAYS have respect for your system.


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  #15  
Old 07-10-2008, 12:27 AM
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Thanks for the info. I don't know what I'm doing with hydraulics but I know enough to seek out the info from those that do know Right now I'm trying to get a basic understanding/design done, then I have a distant relative that builds machines and has made a few presses (the one I saw had about a 18" cylinder, its huge) that I will run my plans by to see what he thinks. I've been reading all the past threads and picked up Bob Warners plans on making a press. It will be awhile before I can purchase all the parts so I have time to research.
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