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Old 08-22-2017, 12:46 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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Nitro-v

Hey guys...so I was about to order more steel and I was thinking about this nitro-v stuff that NJ steel barron has....little bit cheaper than some of the stuff I usually use but also just kinda curious...it shows the makeup of the steel but what I am wondering is if any of you guys have tried and and what kind of HT it needs...thanks as always
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Old 08-22-2017, 04:11 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Seems real similar to Sandvik 14C28N

Except for the minuscule amount of Vanadium at 0.079 and a slightly higher Carbon, 0.68 vs. 0.62 content they could be the same. I have no idea what such a small amount of Vanadium would accomplish, but they put it in there for some reason. I'm no expert on the Nitrogen bearing steels, but would recommend you call Peters HT in Meadville PA or call NJSB and ask how to HT this alloy. Here is a link to the Sandvik data sheet.

https://www.alphaknifesupply.com/Pic.../14C28N-DS.pdf


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Old 08-22-2017, 04:56 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Heat Treat recommendations are similar to AEB-L. 1950F - 20 minute soak - plate quench. Cryo is helpful but not required. Tempers at 325F should yeild about 61.5 - 62 - or at around 500 should yeild 58ish - so adjust as per your needs.....


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Old 08-23-2017, 09:43 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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Thanks jim I am going to check out that link right now...

Ray thanks I assume it should DEFFINITLY only be plate quenched? I know when the option is there you always go to oil..ill have to check and do some reading When I plate quench 440C wich isn't all that often but I always make sure the edge of the stainless envelope that has the edge of the knife points toward me under the plates and then I spray in compressed air on the side that the edge is facing...good idea for this steel?...I don't THINK it would hurt but hey ya never know
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Old 08-23-2017, 11:22 AM
samuraistuart samuraistuart is offline
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Note...I have not used it, but know a little about it.

If you note the composition of Sandvick's 14c28n.....it is about identical to Aldo's Nitro V. 14c28n was Sandvick's response to a slightly more wear resistant, and slightly more corrosion resistant, steel over their 13c26 (AEB-L). It has the same HT as AEB-L.

A word about "cryo" and "sub zero", again, just to make sure we are all on the same page:
1. "CRYO", is LN2 temps, ~-300F. Cryo is done for 2 reasons, mainly. Convert retained austenite into untempered martensite (that gets tempered later). Also to permit the formation of super small "eta" carbides (upon tempering). These super small carbides actually increase toughness AND wear resistance, by the added cohesion they give the overall matrix. Only the VERY highly alloyed steels NEED cryo. It is simply the fact that their martensite finish temperature is well below even sub zero dry ice temperature.
2. "Sub Zero", is dry ice slurry temps, ~-100F. Sub Zero does only one thing, mainly. Converts retained austenite into untempered martensite (that gets tempered later). It is NOT cold enough to permit eta carbide precip. It is done to convert RA in the lower alloyed stainless and tool steels, like AEB-L, Nitro V, etc.

You SHOULD, and I do stress SHOULD, be doing AT LEAST a sub zero (dry ice and denatured alcohol slurry) treatment with AEB-L, Nitro V, and the like. The martensite finish temperature of AEB-L is right around -100F. If you do not address the retained austenite in such steels, your edge stability will suffer, because RA is a relatively soft structure, similar in hardness to pearlite, and is not ideal.

The sub zero is done immediately after your plate quench, before tempering. If you do a snap temper before sub zero, you are automatically STABILIZING the very retained austenite you are trying to convert. Deal with any possible/perceived distortion by some other method than relying on a snap temper.

As for what quench is best? If the plate quench gives you the HRC you are looking for, then it's fine. You can oil quench these steels. A2 is an air/plate quenching steel, it is often oil quenched...as is D2. Not a fast oil, but a medium speed oil. Or canola. I believe these steels are very predictable, and the numbers fall right where they should using plate quenching. Forced air is plenty fine with the plate quench...no issue at all. Should be around 62 post plate quench, and 63, possibly 64 after sub zero, or cryo.

edited to add (almost forgot!):
The vanadium is an extremely small amount. This small amount will not form any primary vanadium carbides....it is strictly there to keep aus grain small, by pinning grain boundaries. It will not contribute to wear resistance.
The nitrogen is there to form nitrides, which are harder than carbides. But also, it is an extremely small amount. The added nitrogen will free up some of the chromium as well, making it slightly more corrosion resistant.

Last edited by samuraistuart; 08-23-2017 at 11:27 AM.
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Old 08-23-2017, 01:15 PM
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Those specs I provided were the result of a fast google search. They are intended as a starting point as no one seems to have refined the HT for that steel or, at least they haven't written it down where I could find it. I agree with Stuart that it doesn't have to be plate quenched. I always tend to use oil instead of plates but that's just my bias. Some experimenting will be required to get this steel to its maximum, the same as any other steel you might use for the first time. In the end, my guess is that it will merely be another steel, not particularly better or worse than any other quality blade steel. You'd probably save a lot of time and money if you just concentrated on mastering two or three high end blade steels. Maybe once every 5 years you might play with the current steel du jour just because the customers want the latest and greatest but it isn't really likely to be significantly better than any other high end steel you've already mastered....


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Old 08-23-2017, 07:49 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Ray does have a point Dave, your S35VN knife was done very well and cut up a bunch of cardboard and some scrap dymondwood I had laying about and still held an edge. I wouldn't be surprised if your 440C isn't as good as it can be too.

The AEB-L steel is a great steel for somebody that doesn't have LN capability as it only needs dry ice (-105) for cryo and to be dropped down to -95 degrees or better and it doesn't even need to be soaked for long. A slurry is needed if you're doing several knives at once and for long soaks, but if only doing two or three just laying them flat between two blocks of dry ice will get them down there.

The Nitro according to the Sandvik 12C28N data sheet will benefit more from the LN you already have Dave, but according to the temper table on the data sheet for the Sandvik it has a very low temperature for tempering. So a lot of experimenting will be necessary to get the best out of it as they are not exactly the same. There are just so many high performance alloys out there now it's a smorgasbord of which one should I try. I wished I had a HT oven and a tank of argon.
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Old 08-24-2017, 05:12 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
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samurai....thank you for all the info. And yes I have a 30 liter liquid nitrogen container right next to me I cryo all my stainless.

Ray and Jim....I totally get its a starting point. Just like a spec sheet. I just couldn't fid a actuall spec sheet for this steel that is why I asked. And yeh I get you gota work it from there. and yeh a good part of the reason my s35vn was so good jim was cause ray gave me a starting point way above and beyond a spec sheet but even then I played with it....the 440c started at a spec sheet and yeh I have gotten to a point where I think its as good as its going to get. So I have read people saying this nitro v stuff is pretty good and its cheaper so I figured it might be worth a shot to play with
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