MEMBER ITEMS FOR SALE
Custom Knives | Other Knives | General Items
-------------------------------------------
New Posts | New PhotosAll Photos



Go Back   The Knife Network Forums : Knife Making Discussions > Custom Knife Discussion Boards > Knife Making Discussions > The Newbies Arena

The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-28-2016, 12:20 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: putnam county NY ....about 45 mins north of new york city
Posts: 1,443
knife steel and salt water?

Hey guys so this next knife is a birthday present for my uncle. he has always been a heavy hunter and fisher. so past couple years I thought he has been doing more hunting than fishing and I know he has a few clip point knives so I was going to make one of them however I found out he has gotten his boat fixed and this past year put it back in the water down on the long island sound. and his girlfriend told me since the boat has been in the water he has gone fishing almost every morning. so I got 2 questions. one I was never a heavy hunter and fisher just something to do with my dad and my uncle when I was young never got to much into it. so the clip point design would work well for hunting but maybe not the best for fishing. so for any of you guys out there that do hunt and fish is there any style of knife that you have used and can say yes it works good for both hunting and fishing? Second question I have 3 stainless steel bars 440c, 154cm, CPM S35vn, so as far as corrosion resistance 440c has the least cpms35vn has the most and 154cm falls in the middle I have done some reading comparing them and looked at a bunch of charts but never done any testing on the 3 as far as corrosion resistance so I am wondering how these charts translate to real life. so him fishing in the long island sound its salt water. would the 440c or 154cm still be good as long as its dried after use or with the salt watter should it really be done with the cpm s35vn.? I have a lot more of the 440c and 154cm so I would rather do it with that but I don't want to have the salt water ruin the knife either. this may be a very basic question but I have never used any of my knives in salt water and I know that is much more corrosive than plain water so any advice would be appreciated guys THANKS!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-28-2016, 12:50 PM
Ray Rogers's Avatar
Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
Founding Member / Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wauconda, WA
Posts: 9,783
There probably is no such thing as one knife that's good for all things, or even just for fishing AND hunting. Of course, almost any knife could be used for both those things but why? You're a knife maker now so....make a knife. in this case one for fishing. I think he can probably deal with having two knives without any sort of mental break down.

Make a small fillet knife, use any of those steels you like. Any stainless will rust a bit in salt water but it's not an issue with a little care. All my salt water fillet knives were 440C and no one ever complained. Make a kydex sheath for it and you should have a pretty durable knife for salt water.

Now you're going to say that you never made a fillet knife before. Well, this will be the first time then and you will have a lot to learn in order to make one. Limit yourself to a 5 or 6 inch blade, put a distal taper on the blade as you grind, and have the blade wider at the handle tapering the blade width as you go to the tip. That will give you some flex - stainless will not flex like a carbon steel Rapala so don't expect that. With stainless, the flex comes from the way the blade is shaped instead of the heat treatment ...


__________________

Your question may already have been answered - try the Search button first!






Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-28-2016, 01:19 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: putnam county NY ....about 45 mins north of new york city
Posts: 1,443
Ray once I heard he was fishing a lot again fillet knife was the first thing I thought problem is I should have planned this out way sooner...his birthday is tomorrow lol but I wont see him tomorrow so its not like it needs to be done in one day problem is I don't know how long I have ill probilly end up seeing him mid next week so I got a few days I knew the fillet knife will take some experimenting but I was thinking I would be playing around with the heat treat to get it right would take to much time since you said its more the shape than the HT i think it may be easier and quicker playing with the shape than playing with the HT so i may be able to get that done.... we will see.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-28-2016, 02:43 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Now live in Las Cruces NM.
Posts: 1,182
Easy Dave 440C

It has the most chrome and a filet knife is fairly easy to grind. Of the knife steels 440C has what is called the most free chromium in it, that is chrome that hasn't turned into carbide. When the chrome turns into a carbide it loses some corrosion resistance. I don't know why you said it has the least resistance, it has the most, 17% chrome the others have 14%. For a filet knife you should know what your uncle prefers, whether a flexible or stiff knife. I prefer a stiffer filet myself and have taken charters out and commercial fished on my Dad's boat back in the 70s. Make the knife RC60 as the bones will dull the knife quickly.

Now that said as to corrosion resistance the CPM S35VN is the choice for sheer abrasion resistance. He'll be cutting through bones and scales. Not to contradict Ray, but a knife for ocean fish needs to be bigger than 5 or 6 inches. How thick is it? The best thickness would be around 3/32 to 1/8". As Ray said you can taper it down it if it's thicker than 1/8". Practice with some plain steel before using that expensive CPM S35VN though.


This is a filet knife I made my son and it is D2 which is not a stainless steel, but does have 11% chrome in it so it is nearly stainless which is 13%. You can see a bigger image in the ALL PHOTOS link on the home page toolbar, it's down the page a ways under "My Wavy Knives". The blade is 9 inches long 5/8" wide and is made from 1/8" stock and the spine tapers down about halfway. My son hasn't had to sharpen it yet as it is also RC60 cryo'd and D2 is famous for abrasion resistance which just means it holds an edge longer. It is a little flexible, but as I said I like them that way. So go with the CPM S35VN at about RC60 and he'll need a diamond sharpener. There is a big difference between the 3 knife steels you mentioned in abrasion resistance and 440C has the least and the CPM S35VN has the most. All three hardened to the same exact hardness the CPM stuff will cut twice as much as the others before going dull. My D2 will beat the 440 and 154, but not the CPM S35VN. Vanadium makes the hardest carbides as does the 0.50% niobium which is what the N stands for. D2 has vanadium in it about 1% and higher in carbon like 1.5% so it makes a lot of vanadium and chrome carbides. I have some .080 154CM I am going to make into filet knives and because of how thin the material is I won't have much grinding to do.

Have you HT'd the CPM before Dave as it's kind of complicated? If not maybe the 154CM would be a better way to go. Like Ray said all knives will corrode in a saltwater environment if not taken care of. I made a big filet knife out of O1 and the guide who took us fishing used it to filet about 80 fish over two days and he bought it from me and you know he takes care of it as he doesn't have to sharpen it very often where the factory blades he had he touched up their edge about every four or five fish, those bones and some fish's skin and scales are a bugger to get through. Also you can blacken the knife blade after heat treat by putting in in vinegar for about three days or ferric acid for a few minutes for some extra corrosion protection, it isn't necessary to stonewash it. I would go with a hidden tang pinned and a small stainless pommel and stuff the hole full of caulking compound like I did the O1 filet knife till it oozed out of the guard.lol
Here is another filet knife made by A.T.Talley for his father it's 1084 and has a swordfish bill for a handle. It is for the ocean and is a 9" long blade. All brass fittings and pins.

Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-28-2016, 03:19 PM
Ray Rogers's Avatar
Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
Founding Member / Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wauconda, WA
Posts: 9,783
My salt water fillet knives were always 11" blades or longer. The reason I said 5 or 6 inches was that I know this will be Dave's first fillet knife so no point in setting the goals too high. Besides, although Dave didn't specify what type boat his uncle had I'm assuming its something small and that he probably won't be catching many 40 lb fish. Dave didn't ask about carbon steels so I didn't muddy the water (pardon the pun) by bringing up that possibility. And let's not overlook the fact that at first Dave asked for a hunting/fishing combo knife - a 5 or 6" blade probably fills that bill better than something much longer. Anyway, my point is that if I'm going to suggest that someone make a knife of a type I know they have never made and that I know takes some practice to do well I'm going to try to step them through a learning process rather than expect them to produce a master work on the first go round ...


__________________

Your question may already have been answered - try the Search button first!






Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-28-2016, 04:14 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: putnam county NY ....about 45 mins north of new york city
Posts: 1,443
Jim I did a bunch of searching around comparing the different steel and as far as corrosion resistance 440c and 154cm are about the same some people say one is a lil better and some say the opisat everything I have seen the the cpms35 vn is way above the others. and as I said I had thought most of the flexible ness came from the HT (and I guess it may with carbon steel) and that is why I didn't think I would have time to play with the HT. but ray saying that using stainless the flexibleness comes from the shape now that's a different story and I think I will use the cp,s35vn its deffinitly the toughest so I can make it harder than I can with the rest. and yeh jim I have done 2 blades in cpms35vn I know that's not a lot for a new steel but I really lucked out on the HT with that one both times I nailed it on the first shot (wich does not happen to me very often I really almost didn't belive it I had expected some experimentation with that one)
RAy I know exactly why you suggested a 5 or 6 in knife and your right this type of knife is very far off from anything I have ever done. I don't think ANY knife I have done has flexability as a characteristic I needed to deal with. I am going to start on this tomorrow. and me and my mother talked we are going to go visit him wedsday or Thursday so just because this is my first attempt at this and time is a factor I am going to cut out a blank and HT a clip point hunter also and put it on the side so that way if I run into tomany problems with the fillet knife I got something to pick up and finish quick as I know I can bang out a good clip point in a day or 2 (depending on what epoxy I use) that way I know either way ill have something for him.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-28-2016, 04:31 PM
Ray Rogers's Avatar
Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
Founding Member / Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wauconda, WA
Posts: 9,783
You won't get much flexibility with a 5 or 6 inch stainless blade no matter what you do but you can get some. The longer blades like my 11" models can get significant flexibility but still not like a carbon blade, however they are not really easy to master.

Look at the HT specs for whatever steel you use. You should see that there is a HT method that results in the hardest blade and probably a variation that will result in the most toughness that steel can achieve. For a knife intended to flex you want to choose toughness over hardness. As Jim pointed out, not everyone likes flexible fillet knives, and you won't get much flex with a short blade unless its extremely thin, but I want you to know where to focus your attention. From that, you can decide how to build the knife you want ...


__________________

Your question may already have been answered - try the Search button first!






Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-28-2016, 05:01 PM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: putnam county NY ....about 45 mins north of new york city
Posts: 1,443
alright thanks ray I get it there is a learning curve specific to that knife but starting on a smaller blade deffinitly makes sense and take what I learn from that to a bigger one there will be things besides the flexibility as I never ground a knife that thin or narrow in the other direction for that and I am sure there will be thing I will run into just like doing anything else that's new
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-28-2016, 10:09 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Now live in Las Cruces NM.
Posts: 1,182
My mistake Ray, but that D2 blade at just over 5/8" wide was fairly easy to grind and I did it on a 2x48 we had at work. (Seemed easy to me) It being 1/8" thick actually worked in my favor as it was simply take the bevel to the 1/2" mark until I got down to the end and tapered it. That was a copy of a filet knife I had seen and used. So I made it like that. It was also the first filet knife I ever made. I've made some since like the O1 which was shaped more like AT Talley's knife as I knew it was going to be for the ocean so it had a 10" length , but was wider and it got cryo'd too as the scientific studies showed O1 abrasion resistance improves over 200% with it. It had a taper from the spine to the edge and wasn't very flexible , but it sure did hold an edge through a lot of fish.

I'm going to make some filet knives from thinner material as the grind time is greatly reduced. I have some 154CM and will make two knives with the amount I have, but when I go to Florida I intend to have at least 6 or more filet knives. I was offered $150 for that D2 knife by the first guy I showed it too. If he'd offered me $200 my son wouldn't have the knife.lol I actually traded the O1 knife for an extra day of free guided fishing for my son and I, about a $300 value. I need to make some money and giving away knives isn't helping me.

Stopped at Damon's the other Day Ray, he tried to feed me a hell fire reaper pepper, but I declined. Showed him a trick with that diamond compound and he's getting that big chef's knife done. I used his big grinder, it was a nice visit. He has some awesome knives Ray. Watched him engrave and saw some of his micro-engravings, just awesome.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-29-2016, 07:57 AM
WNC Goater WNC Goater is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: NC Mountains
Posts: 469
I'll weigh in with an opinion(s).

A shorter fillet knife is fine. When thinking of "fishing" knives, everyone gravitates toward a fillet knife thinking about cleaning fish...typically larger fish. Realistically, there are a LOT of jobs when fishing that a smaller more compact knife is desirable. Cutting bait, filleting strip bait from small fish, bleeding or gutting larger fish, cutting line, rigging, etc.
As a fisherman, IMHO I would use a smaller "fillet-type" knife as much or more than a 10" or longer blade.

Flexibility? Meh...not a biggie with a utility type fishing knife, again IMO. But a nice slender blade profiled like a fillet knife and with a full flat grind and comfortable waterproof handle, like that Kirinite material you use would be a very useful knife on a boat for fishing. Keep in mind as Ray mentioned, a 5 or 6" blade will have limited flexibility anyway and you cannot use 1/4" stock obviously. In fact, I think 1/16" or maybe 3/32" would be about as thick as you could go if you want flexible. Again, realistically not much in a 5"-6" blade. But again, flexible is not that big of a deal with the type knife you're talking about. Holding a sharp edge is like 100 time more important than flex.

Corrosion resistance? Just use whatever stainless is easiest for you to use and HT. Heck, fishing gear ain't cheap and most guys take care of their gear. Anything used in salt water is rinsed off with fresh water after a trip. If it isn't NONE of his gear will last long.


__________________
Find me on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/gpopecustomknives/

Gloria In Excelsis Deo!!

Last edited by WNC Goater; 10-29-2016 at 08:01 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-29-2016, 09:04 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Now live in Las Cruces NM.
Posts: 1,182
Dave mentioned his uncle fished Long Is. Sound.

When the big stripers run through the Sound they run from 20 to 50 lbs. A big knife is called for. Now as a fishing guide and deckhand myself I had a 6" blade and several 9-10" blades. So for ocean fishing like goater said a nice little 1/16" thick blade and a bigger blade are called for. I used an extra big butcher's knife for the big Pacific Halibut running 50+ lbs. Usually a fisherman uses at least two sizes of blade. I did commercial fishing and caught a 1200 lb. swordfish, guess what I used on it?

As for corrosion resistance Dave the steel with the most chrome wins and that is 440C at 17%. This isn't a knife maker's opinion it is science same as scientific studies prove that cryo'd steels are better if they contain certain elements like chrome, tungsten, moly, vanadium and even manganese. All knife steels contain manganese, but the improvement isn't worth the trouble for 1084 let's say, but if it has chrome it will greatly improve the steel. W2 will benefit from cryo despite what some knife makers may say. Go for the scientific studies when you can find them. Anecdotal statements by some makers out there isn't science. One maker said that shallow cryo with dry ice is useless, but that absolutely is not true. All my O1 gets three days under dry ice and it holds an edge much much longer than if I didn't. Not as good as LN, but still very useful.

Last edited by jimmontg; 10-29-2016 at 09:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-30-2016, 09:24 AM
dtec1 dtec1 is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: putnam county NY ....about 45 mins north of new york city
Posts: 1,443
hey guys gota make this quick on the way out the door.. but thanks WNCgoater ya know I actually thought about what you were saying yeh a large filet knife might serve well when catching a big fish however there is a lot of work that needs to be done before catching that fish and a large fillet knife might not be the best tool for that. however my uncle has been hunting and fishing his whole life and I know he has literally a couple hundred knives laying all over the house and I know he would not go fishing with one knife, this man wont go to the gas station without 2 knives on his hip and one in the car glove box lol (I am not joking dead serious about that he always has had many many knives and guns around) so obviously I am not going to replace all of his knives with one that just wont happen but since I cut out and heat treated a clip point hunter and put it on the side just incase I mess up the filet knife since It will be my first and am on a lil bit of a time limit. if I mess up the filet I know I can pick up the clip point and finish it out in a day or 2. I was thinking since I have that as a back up about taking the risk in making a larger one than ray had suggested but now I am not so sure not only cause ray has a good point you gota walk before you can run kinda thing but also a smaller one will be able to be used for more than just cutting fish.

JIM.... I get what your saying about the chrome in the steel 440c is 17% according to the Latrobe spec sheet. CPMS35VN is only 14% BUT everything I find comparing the 2 even on the cpm spec sheet says the cpm35vn has a higher level of corrosion resistance. I think either way if the knife is taken care of it will be fine. but I am wondering if you have found any information that says the opposite than what I have been able to find not just for this knife but for future ones I would like to be as educated as possible (without taking college classes on metallurgy)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-30-2016, 11:04 AM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Now live in Las Cruces NM.
Posts: 1,182
CPM S35VN has more Vanadium and Molybdenum than 440C.

Guess what Dave, vanadium and Moly are also corrosion resistant, but most of it is converted into carbide as the S35 steel has 1.45% carbon. Then that little .50% niobium makes a very even amount of micro carbides spread evenly through the CPM process. CPM is a process where the steel is forged by spraying particles layer after layer and you get a more even alloy. That's the best way I can explain it.
If you look at A11 steel it has 5.5% chrome, 2.45% carbon, 1% moly and 9% vanadium. It will surpass even the CPM S35VN in hardness and abrasion resistance. I called Alpha knife supply and asked if the 15% of chrome, moly and vanadium would make it as corrosion proof as a regular stainless steel and they said no as there is so much carbon in it that almost all the elements turn into carbides and the carbides are not very corrosion resistant as when it isn't heat treated. Steels can do some weird things. I always thought that the blade gets more corrosion resistant after HT, but apparently that only applies to iron carbides like in 1084 and it isn't a lot.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
154cm, 440c, advice, back, bee, blade, clip point, cpm, design, fishing, fixed, heat treat, hunter, hunting, knife, knife s, knives, make, salt, stainless, stainless steel, steel, water


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Salt water Etching quick questions Rescue341 The Newbies Arena 18 09-18-2016 09:13 AM
Steel for salt pots Doug Lester Tool Time 4 08-17-2009 03:37 AM
Water Quench Steel? Gary Mulkey Ed Caffrey's Workshop 8 03-01-2008 10:14 PM
salt water etching MPMetal Tool Time 6 10-02-2002 12:26 PM
Using water for quinch of high carbon steel ? pupandcat Ed Caffrey's Workshop 7 03-26-2002 12:26 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:11 PM.




KNIFENETWORK.COM
Copyright © 2000
? CKK Industries, Inc. ? All Rights Reserved
Powered by ...

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
The Knife Network : All Rights Reserved