A Philosophical Question--Please Read

***EDITOR'S NOTE****04/18/02 The following was originally posted in October of last year, after much soul searching on my part, having been intimately involved with the Neo-Tribal movement for several years. Looking back, I feel the discussion presented here was very good--one of the best we had, and worthy of more reflection.

I would like to add that in the beginning there seemed no dispute that Tai Goo was the driving force and inspiration behind the movement. This was reinforced in print (without dispute) in the movement's newsletter "Tribal Now." When Tim and Tai had their falling out over a year ago, Tim asserted that he was a founder as well. Out of courtesy to him, and not wanting to re-open a debate better left closed, I included his name in the original post. My doing so was in no way an attempt at downplaying Tai's claims of being the sole founder. To my knowledge, Tim never publically disputed Tai's foundership, or said anything to the contrary regarding that until he went his own way and left the tribe. Again, I'm not trying to open old wounds, but trying to attempt to see that proper credit is given where credit is due. Every person I know in knifemaking circles outside the NT movement credits Tai with founding the group, and when I first joined early on, there didn't seem to be any doubt of that fact. The Neo-Tribal movement was one of the most interesting experiments in knifemaking, and I was glad to be a part of it. Despite who claims what, there's no question that Tai's vision has profoundly influenced a lot of people and their approach to knifemaking, and I'm glad he participates on this forum. He's encyclopedic in his knowledge, and more than willing to share it--which is something for which we should all be grateful.

As a group of evolving artists and craftsmen we should always be examining ourselves, and re-inventing ourselves--holding on to the the good, but not getting fixed there, instead, building upon it and ever climbing to new heights. I re-opened this topic (which was getting ready to go away) so that we could re-read what the thought was several months ago, and see where we are today. Tai has said that the NT movement was over, and that it was time to move on. It's hard to move away from something comfortable, but if our forefathers in Europe had not done so, the USA would be a very different place today. Had the first colonists not done so, the West would be Spanish today. Had the world not done so, we as a race would have never gone into space and we wouldn't have superglue...or something.

My point is, where are we today? We don't use the NT monniker too much any more. Maybe out of respect to Tai, we ought to lay it to rest. It has a well deserved place in knife history, but like I said, where are we today? I still like the idea of being a tribe--it's a much more tight knit group than any other organization man could come up with. Case in point, when my son and I went to Europe and visited with Achim and Tim, we were not just visiting with people with whom we just corresponded over the internet, who just happened to have similar interests--NO! WE WERE VISITING BROTHERS! It was a great feeling. I felt like that when I got to spend time with Jeff Sanders over Christmas, and every time I get to get together with all my Blue Ridge band of brothers I feel that way. That doesn't come from a club or a forum, but from something much greater. We were part of the same tribe--a family of fire, blood and steel. That's a pretty cosmic and dynamic thing.

I'm not advocating anything at this point. The only downside is that some tend to think of "Tribal" as being a particular type of or "look" in a knife. I think we owe it to ourselves and the public to show that "Tribal" is much bigger than that, and no matter what kind of knife a family member makes, it's the unity of smiths that defines the tribe, and not the particular style in which an individual works.

Some things to think about.


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ORIGINAL POST FROM LAST OCTOBER
Before y'all sharpen up your knives, and leave home with the goal in mind of taking my scalp, hear me out. Think about this a bit before offering your input.

The Neo-Tribal movement started several years back--I think I joined in '98 or there abouts, maybe earlier, I forget. It was officially started in Tuscon, Arizona by Tai Goo and Tim Lively. Both men claim to be founders and were there in the beginning, and that's as far into that argument as I care to go. Due to events that I'm not going recount (it's yesterday's news--water under the bridge and of no use to bring up now,) there was a falling out between Tim and Tai that led to a separation in the tribe at large. New forums were begun and the tribe at large (not individual, local tribes) wandered sort of aimlessly. There was a shift in emphasis over NT definitions, directions and methods which stretched from primitive to everything else combined. By the time Tai cut his ties with "Cyber Tribe" with the closing of the Crucible forum, the lines of what was Neo-Tribal and what wasn't really seemed to be blurred to the point of obscurity.

For example, many a time new comers or even folk who had been around for a while started a post with something like, "well, this isn't very Neo -Tribal, but...." I, personally, have always felt funny about someone having to apologize for anything they did when it came to knifemaking--unless it was failure to meet a delivery on schedule. To me the goal of knifemaking is to make a good knife--and that term is subject to interpretation. There are good knives that are made for using, and some that are made for looking at. We're not debating which is better or worse, as each serve a particular purpose and have their own following--to each his own, right? But the careful application of the amount of knowledge and skill that we have at a given time, and the willingness to be open minded to new techniques is what is needed in order for each of us to produce the best knife possible with what we have to work with.

On this forum, we have people who come from all walks of knifemaking. Some brand new and still wet behind the ears, and some old and crusty (like me ). Some forge totally by hand, without electricity. Some use powerhammers. Some burn charcoal, some coal, and some use gas--and some like me, use all three at different times, depending on the weather, time, and fuel availability. Some do a little stock removal, some do a lot, some do none. Some make primitive looking knives, some highly polished, modern looking ones. Some are guild members, some could care less about group affiliation. And all of that's OK. But my questions are, is anything really Neo-Tribal any more? And what, in your mind is Neo-Tribal?

Is using recycled or gathered natural materials Neo-Tribal? I and others were doing that years before I ever heard of the Neo-Tribal Metalsmiths. I was drawn to the group because it was a group that openly did and promoted doing many things the way I was doing them, and, I wanted even moreso to get involved with people who were into make-do/retro-technology, so it only fit that I join them. The NT bunch made it an art form. It gave rise to a wave and level of creativity not before seen on a large scale in the knifemaking world. The willingness to share information for free was the thing that really set the movement apart. Through the full moon parties, and later the forum, many people from all walks of life got the info, education, and encouragement needed to get started making knives. Before that, for the most part that kind of knowledge cost money--and sometimes big money.

But again, I ask the question, what is Neo-Tribal? How much of what you do or make is Neo-Tribal? All of it? None of it? Some of it? And how do you quantify what is and what isn't? And how do you know? By what standards do you judge whether what you do is Neo-Tribal or not? Tim Lively still makes knives totally by hand powered means, down to lighting his fires with flint and steel, yet he claims no affiliation with Neo-Tribalism. Tai Goo still forges mostly to shape and gets very creative in his use of materials, yet he has moved away from the whole Neo-Tribal thing as well, decrying anything that smacks of the term "primitive." Some people think the way a knife is made, is or is not Neo-Tribal. Some think the particular look or style of a knife, is or is not Neo-Tribal. But yet there are people making and doing what some consider Neo-Tribal and they have been doing it that way for a long time, who have no claim or desire to be called Neo-Tribal. So, is Neo-Tribal a name with meaning? I'm curious as to your feelings on it.

As one of the surviving and reluctant "leaders" of the group (I never started out to be one) I sometimes feel like the one surviving member of some once popular rock band, who has assembled a whole new troupe of musicians around him and went out touring under the old original name. Kind of like if one of the surviving Beatles, hired three new musicians and went around doing Beatles music as the Beatles. I'm not sure if the name "Neo-Tribal" has the relevance it once did.

Now don't freak out over my last statement, I'm not getting ready to do anything drastic. The Outpost forum will still be active tomorrow, and the day after, and the day after that, etc. business and fun as usual, and I'll still be here with it. I'm simply posing a question for thought and discussion. I am profoundly thankful for, and deeply committed to this forum and my friends and associates I have made through it. I'm very much committed to the growing of the knifemaking movement and the free sharing of information and education of new people who want to get into it. I still believe in the communal or tribal experience of people banding together to forge and teach and party in the name of metalsmithing. I have no plans to change the way I make knives unless I can find a way that allows me to do it better. I'm not trading my forge for a Bader grinder. Essentially nothing is changing at all.

I'm simply asking you, who participate on this forum and in local tribes, what if anything, does Neo-Tribal mean to you? Is it a descriptive title worth keeping? Are you Neo-Tribal? If so, why? If not, why? If we are to go by a label, then there must be some good reason for it other than it's something with which we've grown comfortable, or it's something about which we feel sentimental. If we are to go by a name at all, then that name must have meaning--or else it becomes a joke.

As we grow as knifemakers, knifesmiths, metalsmiths, artists, whatever, we shall have to incorporate all kinds of new ideas, methods and materials. At what point does any of that take us across the line to where we are no longer Neo-Tribal? Are we Neo-Tribal now? I made a hunting knife for someone recently with a micarta handle. Am I a traitor to the cause? Am I no longer Neo-Tribal? See, we can get too hung up on titles, can't we?

I do not want any person, especially a new person on this forum to feel like they have to make an apology because of something they put the best of efforts into, may or may not be Neo-Tribal, and that by a definition that may no longer exist. I don't want experienced knifemakers, who are members of other forums, feeling the least bit uncomfortable about posting here and sharing vital information based on years of knifemaking practice, because they don't feel they are "Neo-Tribal." Maybe it's time we reclarify who we are and what makes us so...or, if we are at all.

Nothing drastic, here. I'm not proposing anything but food for thought, OK? What are your thoughts?

A weighty and well thought out post.
I may not get all my thoughts in on this first post, but here goes.

In the beginning as far as I understand it was a "way" of making knives with less. It had a certain style, although there were certain "looks" or varriations of style.

Root word, Neo meaning new and Tribalo meaning group with common interest. New-Group

The orginal members had "classes" of tribal, non electric, hand work, and then some work with epoxy and power tools.

Later the "classes" were dimantled by the "originals"

The split promoted a vast (several, really but I like the word vast) number of new tribes on the web.

I make mostly hunters, some stock removal and some forged.
I use epoxy on those because I think it is the most stable for this application.

I like to make what I think of as the "Tribal" style!

To me this is a knife with certain charteristics.

1. A forged blade, although the American Indians, did not have a forge and made arrowheads from water barrel hoops by stock removal.

2. Natural materials, although I have some Philipino arrows that the arrow point was set in the shaft, by stuffing it with garbage bag, heating the tang and forcing it home.

3. It has the "look" "style" that we associate with Tribal artifacts, whether it be African, Philipino or Irish.

I like my tribal knifes to have forge marks on the spine, but I want the edge of the blade to have a finer finish.

Much of the South seas stuff has a pretty good finish on it.

Mostly I think Tribal is a community of people interested in the same thing.
Making a product to the best of there ability with what they have on hand, and (here's the good part) sharing that knowledge with others.

Hey, you fellows that don't now or haven't ever considered yourself NT are welcome to throw your thoughts in as well. This is an open forum, and we welcome your opinion.

Here are two cents from probably the newest newby here. I was drawn to this forumn after reading Wayne Goodards $50 knife shop.

Personally, I despise labels, and generally don't associates with groups, I'm proud to call myself an American, but other then that, I'm fiercly indepent in thoughts and actions.

I don't know that having a paticular lable serves any perpose, and if anything, is counterproductive. I see the "neo-tribal" label as one used to define an artform. I can see in the beginning of the form, there may have been a need to lable it, but not now.

What I see as useful is sharing the techniques and what everyone has learned, so that all of us can improve what we do, and how we do it. If, on the other hand, one tries to confine their art into some narrow set of arbitrary limits, then I see it as counterproductive.

For me, if I'm pleased with the results of the heating and banging, great, and more so if I enjoy the route taken to achieve those results. If I use an angle grinder or belt sander, and am pleased with the results, good. If I build my own forge, make my own charcol, scrounge my own steel, forge entirely to shape, and use native sandstone to sharpen the blade, but I'm not pleased with the results, the fact that I've used some arbitrary contsraints won't give me solice.

Some folks are happy with whatever they are doing, others are grumpy all the times, and like to take jabs at others. Labels simply facilitate the grumpy folks taking jabs at others.

I always thought of Neo-Tribal as making knives in a "Primitive" manner. Forge to shape, use natural and scrounged materials (use whatever is currently available and make a useful tool out of it).

As for the Neo-Tribal LOOK, I always thought that was due to two factors. When working in a primitive manner, it would be difficult to get a mirror polish without buffers and the like.

I also thought of the LOOK as something that came about by one person teaching another and therefore showed them their style. Take a look at a Bob Loveless knife, the design is captivating and a very high number of knifemaker have made that design. Why? Because it fits into what we think a knife should look like. Why? Because when I started reading about knifemaking I read Loveless' book. Therefore I learned what a knife should look like from my teacher. The same (in my opinion) is true with Neo-Tribal, if the teacher tell the student, "This is a knife," that image defines what a knife should look like and the Neo-tribal students have reproduced that "Style" ever since.

Just the way I thought about it.

Personally, I don't think 'Neo-Tribal' has any more meaning in implying a 'primitive,' 'rough,' 'inferior,' 'superior,' or any other term referring to the aesthetics or quality of the knife. It simply means a place to post questions and answers (for me, more questions that answers).

When struggling to find out any meaning beyond this, we divide ourselves, because it's all different. There aren't two of us among this group that would make precisely the same knife, with every single feature exactly the same. We've made similar, and incorporated other people's designs and skill into our own, but it's still our own, it reflects our skill and experience and love of the art in an individual way, but it's still all a reflection of ourselves. That's really what we appreciate everyone's knives. It's the art of it.

I don't think we should pin down any particular meaning to this word, because then we'll lose somebody who feels they don't fit into that category, or someone who dislikes the definition, or the association to that definition. That would be a tremendous loss to us all,
losing the beautiful work of someone, or the long years of experience of another. Pericles said "It's not the walls that make the city, but the people." I say, it's not the name that makes the artist, or his(her) guild, but the artist, and artists.

Keep the fire going(or the motor on!) , your nose to the anvil (or grinder!), and just make the knife.

-Tyler

Wow, I'm definitely going to have to weigh in on this one. Dana, I think some of the feelings you and others, myself included, are having about what Neo-Tribal really means are just the results of the lack of intrest from the original creators of the movement. Also as anyone knows, the more people who become involved in any movement the more the focus shifts simply due to the increased numbers of viewpoints. Things have a habit of evolving!

I have been around the forums since 1999 when Tim invited me, I suppose because of my personal profile over at bladeforums. I had expressed an interest in primitive technologies. (I have no problem with the word "primitive" by the way.) At the time I had only been trying to actually make knives for a year or so and truly thought that my efforts to make knives with few power tools (due to financial restraints) could not result in a serious knife. I am forever thankful to Tim for showing me that was not the case!

I still feel that the original definitions for Neo-Tribal still stand if you want to label your work as NT. My understanding of that is: (1) No use of electricity or gas in the forging/knifemaking process. (2) Less than 10% stock removal after forging. (3) The use of recycled steel when possible and the use of natural items for handle construction.

I have made several items with a "primitive" or antique look to them and have used some of the above precepts but have never made anything that I have labeled or called NT! The closest I came was the blacksmiths knife that Dana won in the IITH:3. The only non-qualifier there was I forged it in a propane fueled forge. I do not consider myself a Neo-Tribal knifemaker but I do like and try to incorporate many of the precepts. I think it became readily evident the the "no rules" atmosphere of the NT community attracted people who didn't readily fit into other categories (which I find rather funny because knifemakers in general fail to fit in most categories in general and are a widely diverse bunch) I would have to qualify the last statement because I find some things disturbing, the lack of racial diversity among knifemakers in general and the relatively small number of women. I think women in general just aren't as fascinated with knives.

I still like participating in the Outpost forum, the people here are great and always willing to share information and opinions. I will continue to learn as many different techniques for making knives as I can and will use what I have to hand to make the nicest knives I can. Personally I love filing knives, and I love forging knives. I even enjoy grinding on a 2"x72" when I get a chance and I even bought one that I haven't got up and running yet. I have several stainless fillet knives that I am making that pretty much require the stock removal method.

Well you guy's are lucky, you've been spared more maunderings from me because supper is on the table! I would like to say that I feel the original definitions of NT still stand, but that without the input of the original founders the NT community will expand to incorporate a broader range of interests and view points.

Guy Thomas

Bob, your opinion is very interesting to me, as you haven't been around in this circle very long, and as far as I know you haven't claimed to be Neo-Tribal in your approach to knife making. That's not a criticism. I don't want you to feel like an outsider to this forum, but in a way you are to the "movement," therefore your opinion will be more objective than those who have been a part of things for a long time. That's something that I, personally need to hear. Thank you, for giving that input. Your impression of NT knives as being primitive, speaks volumes as to how the NT movement is perceived. That was a major issue with Tai, and which eventually led to the rift between he and Tim.

While I always preferred to think of NT'ism as a "big tent" which could incorporate many different "styles" of knifemaking, it is interesting to see the perception of others, as to how they saw the movement.

Thanks again Bob. Stick around. I don't know where we are going, but I'd bet the family farm it will be some place interesting.

The rest of you guys are bringing up some good points, too, but you're "vets" to one degree or another. Keep the dialogue going, and like Mike said, if you don't get it all in one post, come on back--we'll leave the lights on for you.

The "Neo-Tribal" movement ended last month. Now it's "Post Neo-Tribal" !!! ... "When you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up, and strengthen the things that remain?" Bob Dylan.

As to Guy's thoughts, first let me say that the knife to which he referred resides proudly in my collection--it's a great piece and one I'll always treasure. I've always been blessed with my IITH knives in the mail.

I'll play devil's advocate here for a minute in that the qualifications that Guy mentioned as to what was NT work was only for a particular one of three classes of NT knives. In some of the original NT literature the use of electricty and epoxy's etc., were allowed in other classes. In other words, within the scope of NT'ism, there was, to be sure what Guy described, but there was an allowance made for those who weren't all into or able to make the transition to the Type A or more "primitive" or better yet, natural means of knifemaking. There were type A B and C classifications, and then as Tai told me, subsections of each class, until just about the only lasting qualification for a NT knife was nothing over 10% stock removal.

Keep those brains churning, fellows. This is good.

Just for the records, I am the sole founder of the N-TMs. I say ... it's time to lay the "name", Neo-Tribal Metalsmiths, to rest. A name is just a name. It seems obvious that no one knows what Neo-Tribal means anyway! I suggest changing the name of this forum to just "The Outpost", and drop the "Neo-Tribal". We don't want to sleep through the future, do we?

I'll try to keep this short. To me, the Neo-Tribal Hole in The Web Outpost is a 'PLACE' where I come to learn and share. Who cares about the name? I really think there's too much concern about labels and not enough concern with what we're here for.

I'm here to learn and to share and could care less about what you call this 'PLACE'. I'm just happy it's here. I told you I'd try to keep it short.

I agree with Tai and Max, things evolve. Life is not static. This is simply the place, like the blacksmith shops of old (built at a crossroads) where people gravitate.

On my earlier comments Dana is right, the aspects of a piece of NT work I outlined would have been the strictest interpretation. Obviously NT has expanded.

Guy Thomas

Some good discussion here. And I can agree with alot or most of what was said. Obviously Neo-Tribal covers a lot of ground.
I felt a bit sad when Tim said he was not Neo-Tribal...because to ME NT has been a sharing and a non snobbish movement.

Now Tai says it is dead...but I personally think it is bigger than Tai or Tim.

I think a label is needed ( and basically I hate labels ) because there is an identification process that goes on in peoples heads. Bob Warner had one side of it. But I think a label is needed to sort of explain and identify art.

I like the look of a knife with a few hammer marks left in it. What is that called?

When we say a knife is a Loveless style, an image is conjured.

I think when someone says Neo-tribal, an image is conjured.

Maybe Neo-tribal needs to be advertised more.

I think Neo-Tribal is at the crossroads and if we all back-off, we lose the work that has been already been done.

ghostdog

if you change the name of the forum would someone please email me a link to the new forum last time this happened i wandered lost for a stinkin month.

neo meaning new as someone said earlier

tribal meaning a group as someone said earlier

neotribal means new group so i suppose in its simplist form a new tribal knife would have to be a knife made by a group of new knife makers or is that a new knifemaker group?

someone once said "a rose by any other name"

why is it that human nature feels the NEED to assign names and then attributes to those names?for individuality? theres a million johns out there! thats not individual!

what is neotribal for this group? its the knife your gonna get in the mail in a few days because its new and one of this group made it.doesnt matter if it was hand filed or ground on a 1200$ bader grinder. whether i has g-10 scales or a stag shed glued with pine pitch.as someone has (i guess by proxy at this point)(since the foounding members have gone away)assigned to this group neotribal metal smiths.

has anyone seen any of danny winklers knives? are they neotribal?

Oak