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Heat Treating and Metallurgy Discussion of heat treatment and metallurgy in knife making.

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  #16  
Old 04-21-2012, 09:47 AM
JCPollard JCPollard is offline
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Kevin , I will take Doug's and your advice. Pretty much get both books. I hope you do eventually get a good anylizer. What would you find to be the greatest benefit of having one? Interesting what someone with an intrigued mind could do with one. Your salt pot experiences I found very valuable in utilizing the process with much respect to its dangers(thermocouple/burnt ceiling) thank you and now googling metallograph.
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  #17  
Old 04-21-2012, 10:18 AM
Kevin R. Cashen Kevin R. Cashen is offline
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"Metallograph" is just a fancy way to say a special reflected light microscope designed for producing photographs of the inside of steel, I could do many of the same things with just a metallurgical microscope but would not be able to share what I see with others. These days I am very deep into testing and analysis of many processes we regularly work with in knifemaking and between making my own steel and testing those other aspects it would be very helpful to be able to get an overall chemistry of samples that I work with. If a $50,000 machine isn't daunting enough, the upkeep and calibration certainly is. Perhaps if I ever have the time to make some knives to get caught up on bills I may be able then spare some moments to finish my long overdue book which would be a very nice supplement to the others.
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  #18  
Old 04-21-2012, 10:49 AM
JCPollard JCPollard is offline
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I'd buy your book. This is my opinion. There is a niche that needs to be filled and I am sure its been said x100. The custom knife community needs someone for a modest fee to go to.
Someone with understanding of what the analysis would mean to them and it possibilities.
Send knife to Kevin, analyze and hardness test. Call it get the works. If this is something you have thought of, have you thought of cost? really interesting. You may not get many knives made .

Edit to add. I would pay a non-investment fee for a first analysis and a copy of the pending book. paper back of course signed. I'm a poor guy who would like the community to thrive.

Last edited by JCPollard; 04-21-2012 at 10:56 AM.
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  #19  
Old 04-21-2012, 12:54 PM
Kevin R. Cashen Kevin R. Cashen is offline
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There is the problem, I would need to get at least as much as I would be losing by not being able to make knives. Many folks have some incorrect ideas about what is involved in metallography, it is not just snapping off a piece of steel and slipping it under the microscope- that would be sweet if it were that easy! Instead the piece must be carefully and selectively cross sectioned using a fine water cooled blade, the extracted sample mus then be wet ground on the face to true it up before it is mounted in hard resin to hold it for polishing and the scope table. The polishing involves hand work up to 2000X before proceeding to compounds on special wheels whihc will take it from 3000X to 50,000X before a pre-etch. The etchant needs to be a reagent that is geared specifically for the structures you are interested in, I mostly use nital (an alcohol and nitric acid mix), which costs more to ship to me than the chemicals themselves. This is enough if I am just looking at things, but if there will be photography I then polish again at 100,000X and check for any scratches before another etch. Of course once it is all done you then need the experience to even understand what you are looking at and to be able to identify the phases and microstructures.

So as you can see, while it sounds great, the "modest fee" part makes it pretty tough, there is quite a bit of work involved and in the end not many would pay for it all if you wanted to pay bills and still do it... You know an awful lot like making knives.
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  #20  
Old 04-21-2012, 01:38 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Kevin very nicely outlined the problem for knife makers. It's difficult enough to fine a lab that will do Rockwell testing. To do micrography is a whole different ball of wax. As outlined, there is a fantastic outlay for equipment and supplies. Then there is the labor. Kevin didn't go into how long it takes to prepare a piece of steel for analysis but it sounds like it takes a while and you would have to figure in what you would have to charge per hour to pay bills and put food on the table. In the end you have to charge pretty big money for the service, a lot more than the average hobbiest can afford to lay out. That's without looking for structures that it really take a scanning electron microscope to see. A "modest fee" is like a buyer showing up to a knife show looking to pay $50 for a hand made knife. There's no way to do that and pay for all that has to go into making a knife.

Doug


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  #21  
Old 04-21-2012, 03:25 PM
JCPollard JCPollard is offline
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my idea.

I called a place yesterday that does metal fabrication and ask if they did steel analysis. They quickly gave me a number to a company in Maryland. Hillis and Carns. I am curious what the cost would be. I will try and call Monday. Mostly at the moment out of curiousity to see if its even in my budget. thanks guys for the insight.

James
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