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High-Performance Blades Sharing ideas for getting the most out of our steel.

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  #16  
Old 09-30-2004, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
...
5. 440a
6. 440b
7. 440c
:confused:

My understanding is that 440a and b are basically not good knife materials. (In fact, that's what most of the cheap import knives are made of. Look great - don't hold an edge.)

For that matter, the AUS- series (-6,-8,-10) are similar to the 440 series, but with vanadium added to make them a bit "tougher". A lot of Darrel Ralph's kit knives are made with this stuff, and I don't see many (any?) posts complaining about their quality.

Realistically, any of the steels sold for making knives are appropriate for their purpose. In a well made knife, steel is only one component. A poorly designed knife, one poorly made, or one poorly heat treated, will NOT be improved by using a more expensive steel.


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  #17  
Old 09-30-2004, 12:48 PM
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Rwl 34 ????

how good is RWL 34? how does it rate among the other stainless sorts of blade material?


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  #18  
Old 09-30-2004, 01:55 PM
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Looks like a similar composition to the better stainless steels. 1.05% carbon, 14% Cr, 0.2% V.


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  #19  
Old 09-30-2004, 07:00 PM
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I have a Cold Steel Master Hunter of AUS-8 .It is a very practical knife.It may not be the 'best 'steel but it holds an edge well and is easy to sharpen. I've use it for years as a hunting knife. Dressing out, skinning and butchering a deer with a knife without having to resharpen, with a good handle and blade shape - that's the test of a knife and the MH passes easily. Yes S30V would do better. The carbon content seperates the 440 grades the higher the carbon the better the edge retention but the more brittle - not rocket science at all !
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  #20  
Old 09-30-2004, 09:06 PM
Jerry Hossom Jerry Hossom is offline
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I don't think many people who've used it would argue against S30V being the top dog in this category. With the same toughness as A2, it's a very tough stainless. In the case of most stainless steels though the better answer might be whichever one is properly heat treated. Most stainless has gotten a very bad rap because most factories do a lousy job of heat treating it, resulting in brittle steel. Properly tempered most of the steels listed above give excellent service. I still make about 40% of my knives in 154CM.

RWL-34 is an excellent steel, and unquestionably gives the finest polish I've ever seen in steel. Fine grain also allows it to take a great edge.

I'm hopeful the new CPM-154CM will produce results very similar to RWL-34, with maybe even a little better edge holding. I have a sample, but haven't had a chance to grind it yet. I don't think it's for sale yet though. Crucible is letting some of us beat it to death first. I may be wrong on that and the program has moved ahead without me, due to my sitting on my butt these past four months. Anyone tried it yet?


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  #21  
Old 10-01-2004, 03:02 AM
Ssj2 Ssj2 is offline
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Just how tough is a2 compaired to say ats34?

And how come on crucibles data sheet for s30v on the bar graph it shows s30v being only as tough as d2?
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  #22  
Old 10-01-2004, 09:08 AM
Jerry Hossom Jerry Hossom is offline
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Steel company data seldom reflect parameters the same as we view them. On the scale that matters ATS-34, 440C and D2 all come out at 2.5 (I think that's foot pounds). S30V and A2 are 10 as I recall. A2 has long been used expressly for it's toughness, which is excellent. I don't know of a single knifemaker who has tested S30V and not found it a lot tougher than they expected of a stainless. On that data sheet you're referring to, ignore the bar chart and look at the toughness numbers listed on the right.

At the end of the day, none of those numbers matter and it's only hardnosed testing of the steel in knife blades that tells us anything. For the most part Crucible understands this and maintains a very active dialog with knifemakers on how steel REALLY performs and what changes we'd like to see, what we like, and what we don't. Interestingly, they've also learned some things from us about how steels perform in other applications. The role that microchipping plays in edges going dull applies to a lot more things than knives. Many cutting and stamping dies have some of the same issues for example.

Also there is this fact, no material is any good if it's not used properly. The best steel in the world will fail if the edge geometry is wrong for the purposes the knife is designed to perform. Conversely, a mediocre steel can perform a lot better than expected if blade and edge geometry effectively address its limitations. And as I mentioned above, no steel is any good unless its heat treated properly.


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Last edited by Jerry Hossom; 10-01-2004 at 09:11 AM.
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  #23  
Old 10-01-2004, 02:44 PM
Ssj2 Ssj2 is offline
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Thanks Jerry.

Do you know if s30v is superior in both impact toughness and bending toughness as opose to any other stainless steel?
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  #24  
Old 10-02-2004, 03:48 PM
Jerry Hossom Jerry Hossom is offline
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As far as impact toughness, I don't know of another stainless that beats S30V. As for bending strength, I'm just not aware of what compares with what. It's not something I concern myself with much. There are two failure modes associated with bending. One is fracture, the other plastic deformation. I've not bent an S30V blade to the breaking point. Even if a blade doesn't break in such a test, it isn't very useable afterwards since it would be bent pretty badly. I had a CPM-3V blade bent to 90 degrees four times, back and forth twice, before it finally broke. It wasn't a very nice knife after the first bend though.

I'm curious why that parameter interests you?


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  #25  
Old 10-02-2004, 04:02 PM
Ssj2 Ssj2 is offline
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I read that if a blade can be bent 90 degrees and not break or suffer from a perminet bend (return to true) then it has a very good bending toughness.

Why I want to know what the toughest stainless is and just how tough it is in different situations is because I want to get a sword made out of the toughest stainless there is.
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  #26  
Old 10-03-2004, 03:32 PM
Jerry Hossom Jerry Hossom is offline
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I think S30V is the toughest stainless steel there is. It would make as very functional sword, just as many have been made of A2, having the same toughness. I've made swords in S30V.

I also think you need to bear in mind that some of the finest swords ever made have been broken, and in the case of outstanding Japanese katanas the principle failure mode is to be irretrievably bent. Bending any blade to 90 degrees is usually done only in destruction testing. Even in the ABS Journeyman Smith test, the blade bending test allows the blade to crack 50% across its width, and none are expected to bounce back to true. At the same time, I've seen an ATS-34 blade bent to 90 degrees and return to true, but that was a fillet knife, hardly a sword.

I think you might be setting the bar a bit high.


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  #27  
Old 10-04-2004, 01:07 AM
Ssj2 Ssj2 is offline
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If a fillet knife can be bent 90 degrees and return to true how come a sword can not? Wouldn't the over all thickness of the sword make it more tough then the fillet knife?

I couldn't find the site where it said the 90 degree thing on the sword but here's a site where it shows a guy bending a sword what looks like about 80 degrees to test its toughness and it also says bend the sword 3 inchs out of aliment to check if it will return to true. http://www.thesteelsource.com/html/museumreplicas.htm Look at the bottem of the page.
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  #28  
Old 10-06-2004, 10:18 AM
Jerry Hossom Jerry Hossom is offline
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The fillet knife was paper thin; it would have shattered on impact with anything hard.

Those swords are at
That 80 degree bend you're referring to is not really a measure of toughness, but is demonstrating flexibility. True, that is an element of toughness, but not really in the same context that knife blade toughness is measured. In the ABS tests that require 90 degree flexibility, the same blade has to chop through a 2 x 4.

You have to be careful comparing knife blades and swords. They are fundamentally different things, primarily due to the dramatically greater stresses a sword encounters on impacts. The shear power of a sword can be amazing. One of my customers cut through a shank of beef with a sword, including 3" of bone! That just a whole other dimension from where knife blades operate. Can this be achieved with a stainless steel? Sure, the sword that made that cut was A2, having exactly the same lateral toughness as S30V.

The bottom line is, you need to define your blade and its purpose, then select the steel, its tempering, and its geometry to achieve that purpose. If all you want of your sword is to be stainless, whippy and cut down 2" saplings at will, then a thin blade in 420hc at Rc55-56 will do that just fine. If you want an edge that will cut through most anything, then you need something harder and tougher on the edge, and a blade that's not as thin so it will withstand hard impacts without bending or breaking. There are a great many variables in this equation and you just can't look at any one or two of them without regard for the others.


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  #29  
Old 10-06-2004, 02:06 PM
Ssj2 Ssj2 is offline
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Thanks Jerry I would say understand pretty well now. I for one don't think I would be skilled enough to make my own sword but I would definetly like one made out of s30v. Could you possibly make one for me or recomend a decent custom maker?

Last edited by Ssj2; 10-06-2004 at 03:02 PM.
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  #30  
Old 10-08-2004, 10:24 AM
Jerry Hossom Jerry Hossom is offline
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I can't make one; I'm way backed up in the work I have now. Your biggest problem with getting an S30V katana will be the heat treating. There are only a couple places in the country who can heat treat something that size in S30V. Paul Bos who HT's my blades is limited to 32" (including tang of course) so that's the maximum size I've done.

Very few knifemakers would want to make a blade that size in S30V. It is far the most difficult steel there is to finish, among the steels that would serve as sword steels. In any case, it is certain to be VERY expensive I'm afraid.


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