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The Damascus Forum The art and study of Damascus steel making.

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  #1  
Old 09-30-2004, 05:19 PM
David Peterson David Peterson is offline
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1095/nickel billet question

I really want to make another damascus knife, and I found an interesting billet I would like to use. My question is this.... does 1095/nickel damascus make a good using knife? I want a knife that will hold an edge, but didn't know if the nickel would somehow "ruin" the cutting ability. The pattern looks incredible (water wheel pattern), but thought I'd better ask the pros before buying it. Any info is very much appreciated. Thanks.

-Dave
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  #2  
Old 09-30-2004, 07:16 PM
Larrin Larrin is offline
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I too have wanted to see some type of comparison tests (like rope cutting) between a plain steel and one with nickel in it. I suppose it would change depending on how much nickel is in the bar and so on... I'm sure you know this already, but nickel doesn't hold an edge, but how much could it affect the edge retention if most of the edge was still 1095?
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  #3  
Old 09-30-2004, 08:17 PM
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mete mete is offline
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Nickel is too soft to make for a good edge. It turns out lighter on the blade but a nickel containing steel such as L-6 is still fairly light but makes a good edge with .75% C.
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  #4  
Old 09-30-2004, 09:11 PM
Larrin Larrin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mete
Nickel is too soft to make for a good edge.
That still doesn't answer the question though. Does it affect the cutting of the 1095? No carbon migration happens with nickel, so the 1095 would be basically the same. If the blade was only 8% nickel, would the edge retention drop?
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  #5  
Old 09-30-2004, 11:12 PM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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If there are any nickel layers running into the edge, then it will degrade performance singnificantly. It's not a matter of the 1095 being effected, the 1095 will remain the same, but rather the fact that IF the nickel layers extend into the cutting edge it would be very much like having aluminum there from a cutting ability stand point.

I'm not a big fan of 1095 either. Although you might purchase steel which claims to be 1095, the specs for it have widened considerably over the last several years. Many Bladesmiths have had difficulty getting 1095 to harden. I've not had any in my shop for several years now, and refuse to use it on any knives I produce, simply because it is so unpredictable.

As a general rule with damascus, the higher the constrast between the materials (outside of coatings such as baking lacquers) the less effective it is as a cutting tool. From my experience, you will usually give up some "eye appeal" for cutting performance. Like wise, you can usually expect to give up some cutting performance if you demand high constrast. The best mixture of cutting ability and eye appeal comes from mixing two high carbon steels together (one of the two having a small nickel content, which is the case with 15N20)....of course my favorite is 1080/15N20, but there are a number of mixtures that achieve a good balance, assuming the Bladesmith is on top of things.


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  #6  
Old 10-01-2004, 07:58 AM
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J.Arthur Loose J.Arthur Loose is offline
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What about the 'serration effect,' that might be caused by the nickel wearing along the edge as the blade gets used?

Anyone actually done some comparisons?


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  #7  
Old 10-01-2004, 09:27 PM
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I personally don't like the cutting effect of a hard/soft laminate......in my experience once the high carbon layers become slightly dull it does more tearing than cutting, which for some jobs might be OK, but I would rather have all hardenable layers for something that is going to be used for field dressing/cutting up game.

It's just a personal preference.........


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  #8  
Old 10-02-2004, 11:48 AM
David Peterson David Peterson is offline
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Great discussion guys. I'm learning a lot, and I appreciate the responses very much. Wouldn't the edge cutting effect be influenced more by a forged to shape blade versus stock removal too? I would imagine a forged to shape blade having more layers toward the edge and being able to cut a little better. I'm very glad I didn't purchase anything until I talked with you all. I really want this knife to be the best I can build, since it's for my own use. That nickel layer had me concerned, and from what it sounds like, for good reason. I have been seeing very nice high contrast patterns with 1095/15n20, which might be something I should look into. I don't find much 1080 damascus out there for sale. Is it something that's not used very much? I use 1095 a lot for regular knives and have had excellent results. Maybe the quality control issues have been worked out with it.

-Dave
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  #9  
Old 10-02-2004, 12:34 PM
Larrin Larrin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Peterson
I don't find much 1080 damascus out there for sale. Is it something that's not used very much? -Dave
Well, 1084/15n20 is one of the most common damascus mixes these days. It shouldn't be much different working with 1095 than 1080 or 1084, the main difference is 1084 is a little deeper hardening.
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  #10  
Old 10-02-2004, 02:35 PM
David Peterson David Peterson is offline
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Larrin,
Is 1080 just like 1084 with a little less carbon? What do you mean when you say deeper hardening? Thanks.

-Dave
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  #11  
Old 10-02-2004, 04:16 PM
Larrin Larrin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Peterson
Larrin,
Is 1080 just like 1084 with a little less carbon? What do you mean when you say deeper hardening? Thanks.

-Dave
Yes, 1080 is (generally) just like 1084 with a little less carbon. Deeper hardening has to do with a bar of steel hardening all the way through. A deep hardening steel will make it easier to harden larger pieces of steel. Shouldn't affect any actual welding or forging.
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  #12  
Old 10-05-2004, 09:06 AM
Kevin R. Cashen Kevin R. Cashen is offline
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1084 and 15n20 will weld very nicely and will result in a blade that will heat treat with little problem and give excellent performance. This mix comes in a close second in most of the testing that I have done. I would have no problem using it myself if they would just make the 15n20 in more than wafer thin shim stock (no 1/8" still isn't big enough for me), and I didn?t already have a favorite mix.

It is a rare occasion that I must beg to differ with Ed, but the high contrast/lower performance concept does not seem to apply in my shop or experience, except in the case of pure nickel, where one has certainly settled for a dud for the sake of pretty. The micro serration affect will work quite well if one works off 2 good steels that have different abrasion resistance. If one shoots for hard and soft layers, the serration affect only works on limited softer materials that can tear away the soft stuff while leaving the "real" steel standing jagged, rope and paper will do this nicely. But when something of substance (wood, cardboard etc...) is put against the edge, the hard steel has no support between the layers and will shear off or roll over.

Parlor tricks in very specific applications can make any blade look like a winner but across the board testing will quickly weed out the duds and reveal that there is no one perfect blade or steel, just a vast array of compromises.
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  #13  
Old 10-06-2004, 08:47 AM
paul harm paul harm is offline
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how about A203E and say 01 or 1084 ? i think the 203 has about 18% carbon . paul


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  #14  
Old 10-06-2004, 05:32 PM
Larrin Larrin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul harm
i think the 203 has about 18% carbon .
18%? No, more like 0.18%, maybe a little lower. It's just a low carbon, high nickel steel.
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  #15  
Old 10-07-2004, 10:10 AM
paul harm paul harm is offline
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yes , i forgot the . - but what i was asking/saying is , i don't think there'd be a problem with high/low harding problem like with pure nickel material where the carbon doesn't migrate . why don't more people use it [ 203e ] in their damascus ? are there other problems . i've made one 1084/ a203e damascus knife years ago that i kept fot myself , and it has a very bold pattern . it seems like everyone likes the 15n20 , and i was wondering why not the 203e ? paul


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