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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #16  
Old 03-12-2013, 02:28 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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It would be hard to beat 1084. It does have enough carbon in it to give you some carbide formation but not so much that you really have to be careful about getting too much in solution when austinizing the steel. L6 could also be a candidate for a steel without a lot of carbon but could still give some carbide formation, though you would have to check the actual or target composition for that melt of steel.

Doug


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  #17  
Old 03-12-2013, 03:02 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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I've made a fair number of cleavers and most have been 3/32" stock. Doesn't seem to be much call for really heavy cleavers of the bone chopping style, most cleavers seem to get used pretty much like a large chef's knife nowadays. The same for most of my chef's knives. If you want easy HT then stay with the 1084, the only thing easier is sending out a 440C blade to someone else for HT. Steels like 52100 are considerably more involved when it comes to forging and HT than 1084, but eventually you'll probably want to go that way. O1 is more rust resistant than 1084 for kitchen use and you can HT in a forge and make a blade that performs pretty well but to get the most from it pretty much requires salt pots or an electric furnace.....


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  #18  
Old 03-12-2013, 04:27 PM
SteveGallo SteveGallo is offline
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Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
I've made a fair number of cleavers and most have been 3/32" stock. Doesn't seem to be much call for really heavy cleavers of the bone chopping style, most cleavers seem to get used pretty much like a large chef's knife nowadays. The same for most of my chef's knives. If you want easy HT then stay with the 1084, the only thing easier is sending out a 440C blade to someone else for HT. Steels like 52100 are considerably more involved when it comes to forging and HT than 1084, but eventually you'll probably want to go that way. O1 is more rust resistant than 1084 for kitchen use and you can HT in a forge and make a blade that performs pretty well but to get the most from it pretty much requires salt pots or an electric furnace.....
Would you say that heat treating 52100 or other suitable steel is something I could manage to do with a basic set up and enough practice, or will I eventually need to get fancier to make the "high end" kitchen blades?
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  #19  
Old 03-12-2013, 04:51 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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As far as 52100 is concerned I'd say it takes "mad skills" to do it right with basic equipment but apparently it isn't impossible. But, there's nothing to stop you from forging your 52100 blade (which also takes considerable skill) and then doing the HT in an electric furnace. Using the furnace will give you extreme repeatability and accuracy without guesswork. There are a number of furnaces that are well within the budget of any serious knife maker so you might want to kick that idea around a bit....


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  #20  
Old 03-12-2013, 10:00 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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The thing with 52100 or any steel that has above about 0.85% (85 points) of carbon is getting too much carbon into solution a forming excessive retained austinite. A couple of per cent retained austinite is not much of a problem but more than that can lead to the steel becoming brittle with use. This would only take several seconds of a heat much above 1475? to create a problem and the hotter the steel becomes the faster the carbon will dissolve. The only way to tell for certain is to send the blade out for destructive testing that is complex and expensive due to the fact that it may involve a scanning electron microscope to detect it unless there is a lot of RA. It might be implied if you cannot achieve the expected hardness but not getting enough carbon into solution can cause the same problem. So, yes, you can successfully heat treat 52100 in a unregulated heat source like a forge, especially if you learn to spot decalesance and recalesance, but you can't rely on being able to do it with each blade unless you are using a regulated heat source that will keep you from overheating the steel for too long. That's why I've decided to stop using 52100, or any strongly hypereuticoid steel until I can afford a regulated heat source. I don't want to depend on luck to put out a properly heat treated knife.

Now you will read advice from others that you can get around this by cryotreatment but I've also read some comments that the jury is still out on that and anyway this is more than just putting the blade in your kitchen freezer. It will at least take a dry ice and alcohol/acetone/kerosene bath. If you want to find out more on this you might want to consider dropping Kevin Cashen a line.

Doug


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Last edited by Doug Lester; 03-12-2013 at 10:03 PM.
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  #21  
Old 03-13-2013, 01:30 AM
SteveGallo SteveGallo is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Lester View Post
The thing with 52100 or any steel that has above about 0.85% (85 points) of carbon is getting too much carbon into solution a forming excessive retained austinite. A couple of per cent retained austinite is not much of a problem but more than that can lead to the steel becoming brittle with use. This would only take several seconds of a heat much above 1475? to create a problem and the hotter the steel becomes the faster the carbon will dissolve. The only way to tell for certain is to send the blade out for destructive testing that is complex and expensive due to the fact that it may involve a scanning electron microscope to detect it unless there is a lot of RA. It might be implied if you cannot achieve the expected hardness but not getting enough carbon into solution can cause the same problem. So, yes, you can successfully heat treat 52100 in a unregulated heat source like a forge, especially if you learn to spot decalesance and recalesance, but you can't rely on being able to do it with each blade unless you are using a regulated heat source that will keep you from overheating the steel for too long. That's why I've decided to stop using 52100, or any strongly hypereuticoid steel until I can afford a regulated heat source. I don't want to depend on luck to put out a properly heat treated knife.

Now you will read advice from others that you can get around this by cryotreatment but I've also read some comments that the jury is still out on that and anyway this is more than just putting the blade in your kitchen freezer. It will at least take a dry ice and alcohol/acetone/kerosene bath. If you want to find out more on this you might want to consider dropping Kevin Cashen a line.

Doug
Thanks for the input, but what you're suggesting is flat out too advanced for me - I haven't actually forged anything yet. I read about de/recalescance on Don Fogg's site, but that's about it.

If you make kitchen knives, what do you use instead of 52100? I'm still planning on getting 1084 for some starter blades, but I'm still unsure as to what I would go to for making a higher quality knife without such exacting HT needs. I understand that steel choice is all about compromise so I'm very open to suggestion.
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  #22  
Old 03-13-2013, 06:50 AM
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Crex Crex is offline
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Thanks Imake, haven't encountered the plastic/steel tank design yet, but will be looking (quit helping the guy with his goats awhile back). As long as the plastic is not adhered to the tank walls, then the tank itself should work fine.
More concerned about chamber size for heat control and torch performance with the 5 gal. bucket. The bigger chamber will make it more difficult to control without hot spots and such. Pretty simple to cut the end out of a freon tank (smaller diameter than a Lp bbq tank) to make a forge more suitable for blades and other smaller items.
By the time you finish lining it you are looking at approx 5.5" to 6" inside dia chamber 11" deep which is plenty for most knife blades.


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Last edited by Crex; 04-11-2019 at 06:40 AM.
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  #23  
Old 03-13-2013, 08:35 AM
Imakethings Imakethings is offline
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My preference has been to do two layers of insulation on my forge body, the first is a lining of soft fire brick, then 1.5 inches of kaowool. It keeps the outside of the forge body nice and cool since it reflects all that heat back into the chamber, takes a bit more in the materials, sure, but it works brilliantly for me.
I also like to have a longer/larger forge chamber, 18-24 inches, with a moveable back wall and 2-3 valved off burners so I have the option of doing larger pieces if I choose.

For beginning I do agree that 12" should be more than enough.

Oh, the plastic liner is usually adhered to the inside, I burn it out in a bonfire before I start. It's that or spend hours with a wire wheel on my angle grinder.

Last edited by Imakethings; 03-13-2013 at 08:38 AM.
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  #24  
Old 03-13-2013, 01:54 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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The forge that I use the most has a fire chamber that is only 7" deep. This is plenty for forging because the most you can forge at one time is area only around 4-6" long, depending on your hammer. With a pass through on the back door, it can heat treat a blade probably up to around 8-10" inches and if I'm heat treating a shorter blade I don't have to stick the tongs half way into the forge to get the tip of the blade out the back side to allow the thicker rear of the blade to heat up first.

I do have a forge that is about 17" deep built in a large mail box that can heat treat longer blades but I only use it rarely now.

Doug


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  #25  
Old 03-14-2013, 05:43 AM
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Crex Crex is offline
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I do pretty much the same most of the time, but do have other forges configured for different purposes. I have even put two forges end to end to work on the big 19" and 20" D guard bowies and longer short swords. Worked way better than I imagined.

Figured with Steve just getting started he needed to keep it simple as possible and learn some solid basics. Easy to get too scattered and not really accomplish making quality cutlery. Some of the Blade show tables are good examples of that.


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