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Heat Treating and Metallurgy Discussion of heat treatment and metallurgy in knife making.

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  #1  
Old 07-29-2010, 12:40 AM
Luke Peter Luke Peter is offline
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Location: Durban, Natal, South Africa
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Question Old norton file...

Hi all...

I have forged and subsequently ground a blade out of a file stamped "Norton", this is unfortunately not a brand manufactured in South africa, and I am unable to get any reliable data on the type of steel used in its manufacture.

Now that it is time to heat treat, I find myself unsure as to whether or not the steel is in the 1080 to 1095 range, and am hesitant to clayt coat and water quench the short sword that has taken more than its fair share of my time to produce, lest it fail catastrophically

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks.

Luke
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  #2  
Old 07-29-2010, 02:04 AM
Ed Tipton Ed Tipton is offline
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Luke Peter...I am not familiar with the "Norton" brand of files, but even if you contacted them directly, it is unlikely they could tell you with certainty what type of steel was used in the mfg. of their files unless you could provide them with specific dates etc.

If you have a surviving remnant of the file, you could try to anneal it and then reharden it without actually jeopardizing the knife itself. I would try quenching it first in light oil. Some types of 10XX steels will harden in light oil with a reduced chance of cracking. If it cannot be oil hardened, then I would try to ensure that the blade is as stress-free as possible prior to entering the water quench.

Prior to doing the quench, I would ensure that the knife is as completely free of any "stress risers", has been ground to at least a 180 grit surface, and has undergone a thorough normalizing and annealing so as to eliminate to the greatest extent possible any residual stresses in the steel. Even if this has been done, there is still the chance of the blade cracking during the quench. If you are successful in the quenching, be sure to get it into a preheated oven for the tempering as quickly as possible. I have actually had blades survive the quench only to have them crack while lying on the bench because I didn't get it into the oven quickly enough.

I hope this helps.

Last edited by Ed Tipton; 07-29-2010 at 02:12 AM.
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  #3  
Old 07-30-2010, 05:27 AM
Luke Peter Luke Peter is offline
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Location: Durban, Natal, South Africa
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Thanks a bunch Ed, I will try for a reasonably refined grain structure and completely stress free blade before the final quench...

Are files ever produced from less than a .8% low alloy steel? I am worried about a oil quench for the higher 10xx range, thats a sharp nose on the TTT, and I dont have a suitable quantity of very high speed oils...

I am considering a marquench for this one as well, for some reason the reputedly tougher bainite structer appeals to me, might go bug the guys at mettalurgy dept for a spectrographic analysis then... Its amazing how long "small" scrap projects can take...

I will cut a small section from the tang and produce the required cross-section for a pre test, if it works I will forgo the spectro and marquench, hold thumbs stress concentrations wont be a problem since I can finish the blade before heat treat(inert atm. furnace).

Again thanks for the input.
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  #4  
Old 07-30-2010, 06:35 AM
Ed Tipton Ed Tipton is offline
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Luke Peter...I do know that some files have come out of some of the third world factories that are only case hardened. I am not sure of what the original carbon content is on those files, but I assume that it is not very high. I also know that with some of the name brand files, they could have been made with W1, W2 steel as well as the 108+steels. I have never tried to oil quench a "W" steel, but I assume that since it is by definition a water hardening steel that it will not harden. In my knifemaking, I use mostly 1080 steel and also some 5160. I only use oil on the 5160, but have used both oil and water for quenching the 1080. The only difference I can tell is that the 1080 cracks more often in water than it does in oil. I have also tried oil quenching some 1080 that simply will not harden in oil, so apparently there can be enough differences in the steel that you may not be able to harden it using oil. but no harm...no foul if it won't harden. Given my experiences, I always try the oil first. I have never had an oil quenched 1080 blade crack, so I consider it to be safer than the water.

You also mentioned the marquenching and referred to the nose on the TT charts. My knowledge has not progressed to that level yet, so I cannot comment on those issues at this time....I can only comment on what has worked or not worked for me in my personal experiences.

Also, I have never tried to do a final sharpening on a blade prior to the HT since most makers suggest leaving the sharpening as a post HT operation. I usually leave the blade about .030-.040" thick at the edge. Oddly enough, when I have had cracked blades, most have been on the back or spine of the blade, and not on the edge where I would expect them to be. I am not sure of why this is....possibly a fault in my technique.

"Guud Daiy Mate"!

Last edited by Ed Tipton; 07-30-2010 at 06:47 AM.
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  #5  
Old 08-07-2010, 04:22 PM
WBE WBE is offline
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W1 will oil harden. Treat as if it were 1095. What oil are you using for the 1080?
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  #6  
Old 08-07-2010, 07:56 PM
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Robert Mayo Robert Mayo is offline
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If i had nothing else i would use canola or any vegetale oil or mineral oil heated to around 120 degrees it will harden! Then straight to a preheated oven at 400 to 425 f. for 2 two hour cycles. Stay away from water till your ready to experiment and are willing to sacrifice blades to the gods.
Let us know how you made out.

Bob
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