Dating a Randall Bowie

[dax0007]

I feel so stupid..LOL.. I started reading i must of skimmed over the part he went to the randall shop...


Thanks

[Jacknola]

This is probably legit kit knife but a couple of thoughts are in order.

Randall began putting designators for kit knives on the blades in the late '60s, first a "k" then the word "kit." This dating is according to popular lore (I have not done the research to check this, so....). This particular blade has a post early-'66 stamp so it would have to have been forged between early '66 and .. say ... 1968 when the kit knives were so indicated on the blade.

Notice the apparently uneven brass-back application. According to Gaddis, there was only one guy who could evenly and meticulously apply the brass to the hollow grove on top of the blade without fuse-melting the metals or leaving bubbles, or melting and cracking the blade. This "Mr. White" did the work for 20 years or so. He apparently disappeared about 1975 and the shop subsequently dropped the brassback option a few yers later because they could find no one else who could do the work consistently without damaging the blades.

I suspect the application on this blade was not done by "Mr. White." It could have been applied by another welder who inadvertently melted or partially fused the metals. Because of the lack of the "kit" designator though, it would have been done while the expert, "Mr. White," was still around. Perhaps he was on vacation when the brass was applied to this knife, or perhaps he had a bad day...

[dax0007]

Hey Jack- You HIT the nail on the head! I fail to state I seen this Brasback in my hands about 6months ago(long story) and yES the BRASSBACK is extremely uneven and more copper color than brass.. That stamp had a tigher look-- I need to read your thread of Randall STAMPING.. I believe there is one on here..

I curious on the year as well as" kIT" knives... I did read the thread on Brassback by Giddus.. So this must of been one of those that never made it.. I will tell u one thing that odd style guard is massive in the hand..

thanks

[Jacknola]

RE: this Bowie line. On the other board I've posted some discussion of comparative ages of two King Faisal repro sets ... I'm happy to report I maintained my temper and equilibrium in the face of the usual insults, sarcasm, and disrespect from the resident. Whatever...I will probably move those key posts here later so that Bowie information is captured in one line on this board, for whatever that is worth.

In the meantime, I thought I'd post this unusual and photogenic knife for discussion. Dax0007 (Don) sent me an E-mail saying he had purchased an unusual Bowie and had just received it.



This 12-11 Confederate Bowie (originally called the "light Bowie" until named in 1959) seems to have most of the traits of an early Randall. Note that some of the pictures also include a late 1960s (?) vintage 12-11 Confederate which allows a handy comparison.

Key features of this presentation blade are the thick 1/8-in leather spacers, the widely spaced tear-drop shaped flutes on the collar and coolie cap, the massive, thick guard... sans lugs (probably this was the "braised lug" era and in this case, the lugs were never welded on for some reason), the oblong custom escutcheon plate. All these things, especially the thick leather spacers, seem to indicate a very early Bowie... possibly during the first year of production ... say... 1954, or so. Additionally, this knife has an impressive-sized ivory handle that is not checked or cracked, which is pretty unusual.

Presentation 12-11 Confederate Bowie (PCB), chromed blade, no lugs on hilt, and late '60s (?) Confederate.



Handle of PCB and late '60s (?) Confederate Bowie



Pommel of PCB and late 1960s Confederate (?)



Don bought this knife thinking there was no Randall stamp on the blade ... and truth is the stamp did not show up on the offer pictures (see first picture in post) ... But it has a stamp, just faintly imprinted possibly because of the chrome plating...it is a "type 1" stamp.

Blade stamp of PCB



Note the massive size of the hilt. I think that is an early marker... I think the hilt was made thinner about late '50s, and lugs ceased to be braised, according to Hunt.

knife hilt PCB



Here is the Heiser sheath and old stone... probably original.

Sheath and stone of PCB



Here is the back of the sheath. Moore apparently made the first Bowie sheaths (1953), but Heiser was making sheaths for the new knife models, apparently by 1954 or so.

Back of sheath for PCB



And here is a close up of the original stone of PCB.

PCB Stone



I am not an expert regarding mid-50s knives, sheaths, stones. However, I would feel pretty confident saying this knife to be 1954 or so, a presentation blade that is beautiful and interesting... too bad its companion, 13-12 also without hilt lugs was sold separately to another party (see below). And the companion knife is in a Moore sheath, another indication this was a very early pair.



Don mentioned that he would welcome input on date estimate. Advice on care and preservation of the sheath and the stone would also be appreciated. The blade is chromed and has a few minor scratches. Does anyone know about chromed blades? Can they be polished without damaging the blade or value.

I posted these pictures for him and will let him ask further questions. Your help and comments are appreciated.

[dax0007]

Jack, Thanks for the assistance and feedback.. I am trying to reach out to Arizoniacustoms in order to get in contact with the matching 1950s Randall Dagger they sold.. Atleast put my name in the owner hat..

Very interesting set.. Lucky I got the bowie.. I was very surprised when I received it and felt that massive guard.. If I had not seen the matching Randall Toothpick i may have thought altered?? or ??

But this had to be a presentation set.I also read a thread by the late Mr.Stidham which discuss in detail that Chrome plating became a option in 1954...
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...randall+chrome

Thanks again!

[Jacknola]

Don, I was checking the stone that came with your knife. After a brief serch, I found this posted by Ron (BoBlade) in his "bore" series. From this post, it appears the "Norton Abrasives" stone is consistant with early-mid '50s knives...(see highlighted entry below). So, this stone would apparently be correct for a manufacture date for your knife of about 1954. I'll post Ron's picture of the stone progression associated with this tonight.

From post by Ron Mathews (BoBlade) re: old stones. (note: this post was on another forum ... if there are Mod objections to linking that post here, let me know and I'll remove the link. I feel certain Ron also posted this info on this forum some 10 years ago (!), but I cannot find it. Also, if Ron objects to my copy-pasting his post, I'll delete this.)

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/sh...5C%7CJRB/tp/1/




"From the top:

"C1941-1943/44: Lily White Wa####a

"C1944-1948: Norton Soft Arkansas

"C1948: Norton No. 1 Wa####a Pen Knife Piece

"C1948/50: Carborundum No. 74 SIC

"C1950: "Fish Hook" stone

"C1950: Soft Arkansas Made in USA

"C1950: "Soft Arkansas"

"C Early 50's: Norton Abrasives (2 part)

"C Mid 50's / early 60's: Norton "Combination Crystolon"

"The stones I show are not all inclusive, but represent the majority of those accompanying a Randall knife and sheath for roughly two decades. You can see that Bo had a fairly consistant supply of stones throughout most of the 40's, but towards the end of the decade he had to start scrounging. I've only seen two of the black label "Pen Knife Piece" stones. Both were with pinned ivory field knives from about 1948. There were a "fair number" of the Carborundum and fish hook stones while you see just a few of the "no label" soft Arkansas. In the early 50's he was able to procure a consistant quantity of the Norton Abrasive stones which transitioned in the mid 50's to the Norton Combination Crystolon stones and these carried him into the 60's.

"Disclaimer: The preceeding "information" is a result of my personal observations and should not be construed as factual. Any further contributions or corrections are welcome."

"Ron"

[BoBlade]

No objection, Jack. Your contributions are really appreciated.

[dax0007]

Jack, WOW great find on the info!

Boblade.. WOW just the info i needed for my new "old" grail!

What a knife! I tell you its feels huge in the hand compared to my other confederates..

Looks like everything is original --sheath, stone.etc... I know its unused, but i guess over 60 years old the chrome will get some scuffs.. its a neat piece.

Thanks for all the help

[Moosehead]

From Ron:

No objection, Jack. Your contributions are really appreciated.

Ditto from me, Jack and thanks!

Cheers!

David

[dax0007]

Also look at the heiser sheath for my CONFEDERATE and the pictures of the matching DAGGER toothpicks sheath.. You will see the handle securement late located in a odd spot for both.

all the pictures i can find for a confederate or toothpick the securement latch on the sheath covers the guard.. this holds the handle.. i wonder if this is earilier than 54
??

[dax0007]

Well.. Happy to say with the help of the guys at Arizonia customs i was able to track down the 1950 matching Randall Arkansa toothpick 13" blade..

This was very important to me because not only does it match the Confederate bowie, it for the most part verifies this ODD GUARD is original for this set..

Very interesting to have a set like this with no lugs.. I could not find anything out about the original owner other than it is believe they owned set for years..

Very nice.. blades in my opinion are untouched. un polished, just 60year old chrome plated blades..

Super nice.. And the sheaths are unreal

Just odd the STAMP on the Confederate is so light, but on the Toothpick is fairly stamped well..

I doubt the blades were touched up especially since they are both chrome plated..

The 3rd knife on the bottom is a very interesting model Sportsmans 12-9 that has a brassback.. never seen one before.. Added it to my set

[jeepster]

Fantastic that you were able to buy the Toothpick as well. Awesome set. Beautiful!
Ronnie

[dax0007]

Thanks. I was very happy to have obtain this set

[Jacknola]

Congratulations on getting the tooth. They ought to stay together.

I noticed something that might be historically significant for vintage collectors. Notice the difference between the "boxed-Norton-Abrasives-logo" on the stone in Ron's chronology, and the boxed Norton Abrasive logo on the stone that came with Don's circa 1954 Bowie.



Just about all the "boxed-Norton Abrasives-logos" commonly referenced have the logo in dark blue/black on the light gray side of the stone. This one has the log printed in white ink, possibly on the dark gray (rougher grit side) of the stone (?) Maybe this was common (?)... though I'm not a mid-50s kind of guy.

[dax0007]

Very interesting stone info.. I will eventually take these blades to Randall orlando store to get verification.. from everyones input and reading up on Randall books it clear these are early 50s.. Just the odd guards must have some sort of history

thanks