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  #151  
Old 05-01-2007, 03:06 PM
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I see nothing wrong with either definition as they stand. I would ask how it applies to your source of heat? Does a torch count as tool or machine? A coal forge? A gas forge? A kiln? All are fairly common and from a primitive maker such as the Outpost forumites there is a vast difference in using them. Again would the definition cover the details included in a knife such as engraving, power-assisted vs. hammer & chisel? Sheaths?

Mostly in this area I would just wish that the charity knives I made would STOP BEING LISTED AS HOMEMADE!!! They're not brownies but every time I have made a knife for the United Way or now the Firefighting knife they keep listing it as homemade.

Jim


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  #152  
Old 05-01-2007, 03:27 PM
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I think we're getting into some real nitty-gritty stuff here, Ray, and I'm not so sure that we need to.

My first thought regarding your definitions is to eliminate the heat treatment requirement. In my opinion, that is already covered under sole authorship. It is possible to make a knife by hand and send it out for heat treat. This is a very common practice, especially for the smaller shops that don't have the proper HT equipment for stainless or air hardening steels. I think there would be a number of new makers coming to this forum who would be discouraged to learn that they could not call their knives hand made or hand crafted because they sent their first 440C blade out for heat treat.

My second thought is, and I'm sure you and I will differ here, that many of us look to power tools as time saving devices. A power hack saw eliminates some of the aching muscles where I would use a regular hacksaw otherwise. A belt sander with course abrasive speeds up the work that would otherwise be done by a file. There may be a certain mystique associated with claiming that you absolutely used no power equipment in the making of a knife, and for stock-removal knives, the utility of a definition to separate the two processes really ends right there--defining the mystique.

When we get around to defining "hand forged" knives then we can get to some of these distinctions, but for a stock-removal knife at least, I feel that "hand made" and "hand crafted" are synonymous.

Nathan
  #153  
Old 05-01-2007, 03:33 PM
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I would agree, I think we look to the FTC for guidance here, if the entire process is controlled by and individual, in such a way that the individual can make mistakes (put it in a jig, to grind the bevels, the bevels will be the same every time), then it is hand made. Any further clarification would be the makers to make (ie, I hand make these knives with no power tools).

--Carl


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  #154  
Old 05-01-2007, 05:27 PM
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Ray,

Here is a slightly modified version pf my suggested 'custom' defs set. I think this address your stated concerns about possible confusion and still makes what I consider to be an important clarification. Let me know what you think.

Custom Knife - A knife made by a knife maker to his own specifications which, at the time it is made, distinguish it from readily available factory or mass produced knives.

Custom Made Knife - A knife made to the specifications of someone other than the knife maker which, at the time it is made, distinguish it from readily available factory or mass produced knives.

[Customized Knife - Any knife modified in such a way as to impact design and/or function. This would include
significant artwork, decorative filework, serrations, finger grooves, handle
material, etc not normally offered by the knife maker. This term may be applied to modified kit and factory knives. This term does not extend to minor efforts to 'personalize' a knife such as putting initials on it, etc.


As for the S/A definition. I might have a hang up about the design issue. There is a difference between making a knife in the 'style' of a certain maker and copying an exact design.

Many makers make 'Scagelesque' knives which are designed to look as if Scagel himself could have made it. This would be fine for sole authorship, I believe. However, when someone does a straight copy of a Loveless Big Bear, as seen in the 2005 (or maybe 2006) annual, then I think S/A is out the window.

Example: If I enter the Writer's Digest fiction contest which asks entrants to write in the style of Earnest Hemmingway, it is still an original story. I would be the author. However, If I hand write, in fine fountain pen, a copy of The Old Man and the Sea, on very pricey parchment paper, then hand bind it in a tooled leather cover..., well..., it's still just a copy isn't it?

By choosing the word 'authorship', I think we force ourselves to address design. I'm not saying that copying a design is a bad thing. If credit is given to the original designer, then no harm-no foul, but sole authorship it ain't. IMHO

I'll get to the latest defs on the blocks a bit later. Gotta go do a tattoo now.


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  #155  
Old 05-01-2007, 05:56 PM
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Handmade/handcrafted are defined basically as the same thing in the dictionary.i believe they should be one unit and the heat treatment dropped as it is covered in the Sole Authorship definition.
  #156  
Old 05-01-2007, 07:11 PM
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Dang it! I thought I had removed the part about the heat treating from those. I agree, we don't need it there.

Hand Made - files, sandpaper, hacksaws, etc, no power tools.

Hand Crafted - any combination of hand tools and hand controlled power tools.

Nathan, Carl

Nope, I don't disagree. If you've seen my shop tour you know I believe in power tools, big time. The only question here, in my mind, is 'how do we want to define these terms?" These terms do exist and knife makers use them indiscriminently and interchangeably. That's not entirely bad but we could do better.

The two terms are interchangeable now but just like the 'custom' terms we may benefit by assign specific meanings to each term. The definition of 'hand crafted' pretty much is a paraphrase of the FTC 'handmade'. But, in knife making there is such a thing as a knife made without power tools so it seems to me we should have a term for that. I don't care what the term is if you have a better one but 'handmade' seems to be a logical choice. That leaves 'handcrafted' to cover the FTC's definition and the most common way of making knives.

If you feel it is useful to bring in 'hand forged' or any other related term for consideration here to help identify these various processes that's fine by me.

Jim,

We all feel your pain. 'Homemade' probably isn't a term we want to encourage in our craft!

Dan,

I agree, they are the same in the dictionary. Various professions use altered or specific terms among their members to make it easier to discuss what they do so there is precedent for differentiating among these terms. same theory as we did with 'custom'. In the end, we can leave the meanings the same if we want but why should we? There are subtle differences in the ways that knives are made that have no clear cut definition at this time. we have the opportunity to change that and refine the lexicon of knife makers if we so choose.

Andy,

Isn't the connotation of the various 'custom' terms enough to indicate it isn't a mass produced knife? Including that phrase just opens the door for arguments over whether or not this particular knife differs enough from a certain factory knife to be considered custom even if it fits the definition in every other way. If that argument fails to convince you though, go ahead and prepare your 50 word PRO argument for your version and a CON argument against the other version and we'll stick them up in a Poll and see if we can get a statistically meaninful preference from the world at large.

As to S/A you're right on the issue of design, of course, but as was pointed out earlier there are no new designs for the most part. Everything is based on what came before and even in the case of a direct copy ,i(a Big Bear clone) the emphasis of the definition is on the physical building of the knife. Agreed, it's better (even more S/A) if the design is at least somewhat unique but it isn't required by the definition since it is too hard to quantify to be practical .....


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  #157  
Old 05-01-2007, 08:34 PM
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Handmade/Handcrafted should have one definition and not be split because of the use of electric powered drills,sanders,etc. these tools are hand guided and not automated. the non power tool use will become part of the Primitive definition.
  #158  
Old 05-01-2007, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Rogers
The only question here, in my mind, is 'how do we want to define these terms?" These terms do exist and knife makers use them indiscriminently and interchangeably. That's not entirely bad but we could do better.

. . . But, in knife making there is such a thing as a knife made without power tools so it seems to me we should have a term for that. I don't care what the term is if you have a better one but 'handmade' seems to be a logical choice. That leaves 'handcrafted' to cover the FTC's definition and the most common way of making knives.
First, Ray, I don't think we should bring forging into the debate just yet. That's a whole 'nother can of worms, and there was an entire thread on that concept, so I think we should leave it as is for now.

Just because there are two words that describe or mean the same thing, that isn't a bad thing. We don't have to change the definition of a word just to make it mean something different from another word simply because there is another word that shares the same definition. Yes, there is such a thing as a knife made without power tools. We can call it handmade. It is also hand crafted.

One big reason to define "hand made" or "hand crafted" is to distinguish such knives from those made through automated procedures--use of CNC, jigs, etc. The major steps in producing a finished knife are all done hands-on. I don't feel that there is a difference if bar stock was clampled to a bench and hack saw and file were manipulated by hand to make the knife, or if the band saw and belt grinder were clamped to the bench and the bar stock was manipulated by hand against the machine, or a billet held in place for a power hammer to compress it. The essence of the definition for these terms is that there is a human element, and a possibilty for human error, that is greatly reduced or absent in automated processes associated with mass production.

Merriam-Webster's dictionary defines "craft" as a verb:

"to make or produce with care, skill, or ingenuity " and as a noun:

"an occupation or trade requiring manual dexterity or artistic skill "

Care, skill, ingenuity, manual dexterity, and artisic skill all describe the process whether we hold a file in our hand or whether we hold a blade to a moving abrasive belt.
  #159  
Old 05-02-2007, 09:25 AM
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Dan, Nathan,

Those are cogent arguments gemtlemen, well done. Just to be clear, I don't have any particular desire for the two terms to have different meanings. I do think we need a term to describe knives made completely with hand tools and another for knives made with hand guided power tools and one of the 'primitive' terms could be used for the former and the two 'hand ' terms for the latter. But, before we put that issue to bed, I'd like to hear suggestions on what primitive term would be used. The only term I can think of is Neo-Tribal but to me that wouldn't really apply to a stock removal knife made from a piece of purchased bar stock with files and sandpaper.

The object of the game is not so much to re-define existing terms as it is to refine terms so that we get a specific term for each condition that we talk about as knife makers. That's why one of the 'hand' terms seemed a good starting place because there are two of them that mean the same thing. So, if not one of the 'hand' terms which primitive term should we apply to mean a knife made by hand with modern hand tools and manufatured materials ?


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  #160  
Old 05-02-2007, 09:41 AM
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Ray,

It sounds as if, for the time being at least, that we are comfortable with "hand made" and "hand crafted" being synonyms with the same definition, though we haven't fully formed the definition yet.

Based on some of our discussion above, it seems that we might be better off setting this one aside for the moment and coming back to it after we consider the following terms:

FORGED

HAND FORGED

PRIMITIVE

NEO-TRIBAL

I think after defining these terms we will have taken care of the hand tool vs. power tool element of "hand made."
  #161  
Old 05-02-2007, 11:57 AM
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All of these terms do cover related territory so it almost seems as though we must define them all at once. That may not be practical but we can give it a try. A first pass to kind of mark out the boundaries and then successive passes to refine each definition - sounds like a plan.

To start that process, I have posted a thread on the Outpost asking those guys for input on what Neo-tribal means to them. Whatever they say would be our starting point on that definition. Let's see what they say ....


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  #162  
Old 05-03-2007, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Rogers
To start that process, I have posted a thread on the Outpost asking those guys for input on what Neo-tribal means to them. Whatever they say would be our starting point on that definition. Let's see what they say ....
I see that's going well. . .
  #163  
Old 05-03-2007, 08:19 AM
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Still pondering the 'custom' set pros and cons...

Hand made and hand crafted are the same as far as I'm concerned. Making a knife with no power tools is a 'primative' method even if the end product is refined and not what we normally think of as primative. In the music biz, they call this 'unplugged'.

'Neo-Tribal' is both ambiguous and not widely used. To my knowledge, it is the domain of a bunch of fun-loving, 'hippyesque' (in the most respectful sense), hammer swingers who would shun any effort to have their moniker narrowly defined. This isn't the crowd that wishes to be cubby-holed by anyone. They would rather forge with their butts painted blue under a full moon (if the responses to your query over there are to be believed).

I say we leave 'Neo-Tribal' alone. Besides, it literally translates to 'New Community'. Since the members of a community are always cycling, the community itself is always changing.

As for the knife style that is common among these guys, say... the bush style that Tia likes... I say that is a primative. You could even use the term 'bush'.


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  #164  
Old 05-03-2007, 09:25 AM
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Thanks for the input guys. I recognize the truth in what you have said related to Neo-Tribal. However, the term does exist and it is in use, so it will be defined. It is not my desire to 'cubby-hole' anyone so the definition may be pretty loose but it does mean something and we will get the essence of it into a few sentences, by golly!

This morning, there seems to be a bit more of a push over there to be part of the definiton process so I think we'll be fine. Once Neo-tribal is done, it will help define the other 'primitive' areas by what the Neo-Tribal definition doesn't cover. When the 'primitives' are cover, I hope that will put us in a better postion to define the 'hand' terms by what the 'primitives' didn't cover. At that point is should be easier to tell if there is any advantage to separating the two 'hand' terms or not....


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  #165  
Old 05-03-2007, 10:52 AM
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Just a quick comment about the term primitive--the word can be used to describe both HOW the knife was made as well as the STYLE of the knife. A primitive style knife can be made with non-primitive means.
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